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Home: Breed Specific: Gundog Group:
"Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!"





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LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 27, 2004, 7:35 PM

Post #126 of 161 (2952 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
CoolHi everyone,

With the good for nothing MKA cert, I still cannot believe that a pup in question comes from Champion lineage although it is stated on the cert that every single sire or dam is a SUPER CHAMPION.

Why believe in titles given by weak human beings?

Cheers!Smile



Hi Tim

Coming from Champion lineage doesn't mean the progeny will be champions as well. The faster you get to grips with that notion, the faster you will not be disappointed. When i breed a litter of say 7 pups i may sell 5 off as "pets" and 2 will make the cut as "show dogs." YEs admittedly sometimes the percentage will be higher but it all depends and can never be predicted. Coming from champion lineage just "increases" your chances of getting a dog that could become or produce a champion, but it doesn't guarantee it. Just in the same we we are all homosapiens but some of us are super athletes and others are genius. All carry the same number of chromosomes, etc. Tongue

the cert gurantees you nothing and no where on it do they say your dog will be a champion! Wink The cert is a RECORD of the lineage of your dog. It states the information about your dogs, and then its ancestry. What were you expecting your MKA cert to do?

I always tell my Pet buyers that i'm selling them a healthy well adjusted pet from good breeding but it doesn't mean that just bec their sire and dams are champions means they will become champions. Maybe you have been misled? Crazy

LCK Cool

p.s. As for "titles given by weak human beings" us dog show people know when we enter a show that we are subject to the opinion of that particular judge on that particular day. Different day different judge the result can be very different. Same judge, different day the dog may not win the same as the last time! That's what makes it interesting. We enter the shows for their opinion and that is exactly what we get at the end of the day like it or not. But i know for sure that whatever the results i still take home the best dog! As an exhibitor i might not value the opinion of every single judge, but there will be those whose opinion i do value. Are they also weak? I doubt it. You sound like a very disgruntled exhibitor.
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 27, 2004, 7:47 PM)


kathleen.tay
Canine Addict


Oct 28, 2004, 3:24 AM

Post #127 of 161 (2921 views)
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Re: [clangan] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Uncle Gan Tongue,

Got something to ask you lar... tried to search but cant get any answer. My GR, Angel has some birth mark on and at the back of her tongue. And if i am ever gonna show her, will this be consider as a defect ? The mark is actually black in colour and it seems to be darker when she is tired and panting. When she is in relax mode, it's lighter.

Thanks.
A Dog Never Lies About Love


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 28, 2004, 8:58 AM

Post #128 of 161 (2902 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Yo LCK ...

What's up doc? ... Been busy busy today, no time to drop in ... looks like it's been quiet here hor ... Tongue ...

Back to the question at hand ...

timchan posted: " ... With the good for nothing MKA cert, I still cannot believe that a pup in question comes from Champion lineage although it is stated on the cert that every single sire or dam is a SUPER CHAMPION.
..."


Hmmm ... maybe we should ask timchan what he thinks is wrong with the "pup in question" ... ?

And how about telling us why a foundation bitch is very important? ... And the criteria for choosing foundation dogs.

Cheers


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 28, 2004, 8:30 PM

Post #129 of 161 (2886 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yo LCK ...

What's up doc? ... Been busy busy today, no time to drop in ... looks like it's been quiet here hor ... Tongue ...

Hey Surch - i thought you had also been silenced and pestered not to participate on this thread!!! Tongue Even our expiring judge Uncle Derrick has been so silent. Stock market must be up Laugh I was also very busy for the latter half of the day - looks like everyone else is also BUSY LOR CrazyAngelicUnsurePirate Will await Tim Chan's reply before posting more. LCK Cool P.s. perhaps we should continue this breeding thread on another part of the forum as a separate thread and leave the Gandog group for those genuine Gandoggers. JMHO Unsure
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 28, 2004, 8:37 PM

Post #130 of 161 (2884 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

...TongueLaughWink ... When a tree falls in the forest and there are no ears to hear - is there sound?

... yeah ... let's move ... start a new thread ... and those interested can join if they wish ...

I am waiting for replies from breeder friends re: Boon's question on whether one can reasonably expect temperament to "doubled-up" in similar manner as with conformation elements.

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 28, 2004, 8:41 PM)


timchan
Member


Oct 28, 2004, 8:55 PM

Post #131 of 161 (2881 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool Hi LCK!

I like to see the kennels behind your house...very nice! Always take a glance when I am on the LRT heading to Paramount...bwahahahahahaha.......

And I believe that I have seen you on the showring and must admit you have the best and "classy" pooches on show!

What I am trying to say is that, at the dawn of the new millenium, we cannot even trust what the cert is telling us. I do not mind having a pup with a cert filled with CHs or not. All I am asking is that the names stated on the certs are genuine. At this point, I do not even have the privilege to have a genuine cert. I hope you get what I mean.

Maybe it is because of these certs, one can get CHAMPIONS out of NON CHAMPIONS or vice versa because the certs are inaccurate. At the moment, I believe that we can only judge based on our instincts without even looking at the cert. And for crying out loud! I would really hope that these breeders do not raise the prices of so called Champion Line dogs since the certs are inaccurate. And there is no guarantees whether they can become or produce champs.

At the end of the day we should be proud of our achievements of raising a good dog...I would rather believe that each pooch is a CHAMP in its own rights...and not merely because someone place a CH in front of its name...

I truly understand and accept the fact that each dog/bitch cannot promise you show quality pups.

Cheers everyone...Wink


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 28, 2004, 9:22 PM

Post #132 of 161 (2878 views)
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Re: [kathleen.tay] Breed "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kathleen,

The mark at the tougue whether on the top or the flip side, it is OK, GR with good pigmentation usually has dark mark on their tongue. When she is hot and panting, the mark seems bigger and obvious, that's only natural because of the concentration of blood vessels releasing heat at the surface of the tongue, remember, dogs sweat through their tongue and paws. Angel do look a lot like its sire! I am sure she can move very well! She is from the Rush Hill line and the dam is from Sunshine hill which are also known for their great movement! I am sure she has good forechest and good front angulation. Hope this help!

Clangan


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 28, 2004, 9:39 PM

Post #133 of 161 (2874 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Tim,

Since you ask this question to everyone but directed it to me, I will take the liberty to answer your question! As I have tiredlessly mentioned in a number of posting already, a champion title is earn through a set of criteria. Yes, champions breeding does not always produce champions and so on but the chances of obtaining a good champion dog form good champion breeding will definitely give you a higher chances of obtaining one ...... But to question the integrity of the cert, I think this is why looking for a reputable breeder is important, one who hold the great lineage at heart. At the same time, may breeders faced numerous problems regarding the transfer of pedigree and so on, so mis-management of registration do happen. At the end of all these, I think, if you do not think that MKA pedigree is worth anything and you do not agree with the higher price tag tagged on the good champion breedings, then, I think the next best alternative is to buy dogs of no pedigree, that way, you achieve your satisfaction and I am sure it will be cheaper in price! Hope this help!

clangan


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 28, 2004, 9:40 PM

Post #134 of 161 (2872 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Everytime I think of you, I think of your B'day songs, Somehow, it softens me down , I will let you be, you are at my right mind! Others, I have a reputation to up keep! "To breed champion GR & Boxers?!?" Unsure



"Beautiful Boxer, savadikap!"


(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 28, 2004, 10:14 PM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 28, 2004, 9:59 PM

Post #135 of 161 (2865 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Alamak, move on? Nomadic ways? Gypsy always get hunted down!!! It is a pity I will lose you in this thread, a person with great cyber knowledge!Wink

clangan


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 28, 2004, 10:24 PM

Post #136 of 161 (2845 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue Even our expiring judge Uncle Derrick has been so silent. Stock market must be up [laugh

LaughLaughdehhh tambi, belum expired lah.
Thanks for reminding me where I earn my keep...,not breeding/trading dogs...LOL

After the kind words from you and surchin....i tot enuff saidBlush......if i say somemore takut kena exterminated macham C-Tea hahahaha.

Also somebirdie told me goin to have war in this thread...so better butt out if not macham kanchil kena trampled by the elephonWink


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 28, 2004, 11:17 PM

Post #137 of 161 (2829 views)
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Re: [Riccaval] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Also somebirdie told me goin to have war in this thread...so better butt out if not macham kanchil kena trampled by the elephonWink



And that got you scared? Crazy I don't think you are that kind.

Funny how not everyone can use their brains to answer back Tongue I remember one poster saying that the pen is mightier than the sword, but i also wonder whether that poster truly believes in the quote or is just using the quote as convenient alibi while making threats over sms. Pirate I wasn't born yesterday Wink

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 28, 2004, 11:26 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 28, 2004, 11:29 PM

Post #138 of 161 (2821 views)
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Re: [clangan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Someone will be quiet soon, I guaratee that!!!!




Gan,

Are you threatening me or Surchin?

Gopi
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 28, 2004, 11:31 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 28, 2004, 11:55 PM

Post #139 of 161 (2813 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Cool Hi LCK!

I like to see the kennels behind your house...very nice! Always take a glance when I am on the LRT heading to Paramount...bwahahahahahaha.......

What's so hysterically funny about my kennels?? Or are you just trying to inform me you know where i live?

And I believe that I have seen you on the showring and must admit you have the best and "classy" pooches on show!

Not so - many others are classier as they win a lot more and at higher level. Incidentally what breed do you keep? Do you show? Is Tim Chan your real name or a pseudonym? You must be an active MKA member as you seem to have so many grouses against them.

What I am trying to say is that, at the dawn of the new millenium, we cannot even trust what the cert is telling us. I do not mind having a pup with a cert filled with CHs or not. All I am asking is that the names stated on the certs are genuine. At this point, I do not even have the privilege to have a genuine cert. I hope you get what I mean.

How would the know such things?? It is us breeders who are supposed to tell the accurately whcih stud dog and bitch that we have mated together. So how can the be blamed? Why are you so certain that the certs are so innaccurate? Mine are always spot on and are correct. What happened to yours? And i hate to repeat myself again but it is perfectly possible to get Champions out of non-champion parents. We have already covered this topic at the beginning of this entire thread. Prices for pups are something individual. If someone wants to charge RM20,000 for a puppy then so be it as that is their perogative and if they have a buyer willing to pay that price then good for them. Hopefully they invite me to jin them for Saks Fin dinner. There are no guidelines on how much people should or shouldn't charge.

Maybe it is because of these certs, one can get CHAMPIONS out of NON CHAMPIONS or vice versa because the certs are inaccurate. At the moment, I believe that we can only judge based on our instincts without even looking at the cert. And for crying out loud! I would really hope that these breeders do not raise the prices of so called Champion Line dogs since the certs are inaccurate. And there is no guarantees whether they can become or produce champs.

At the end of the day we should be proud of our achievements of raising a good dog...I would rather believe that each pooch is a CHAMP in its own rights...and not merely because someone place a CH in front of its name...

Yes if you are a pet owner i truly agree with you as i said before that whatever happens at the dog show i still go home with the BEST dog. So every dog, pet or show dog is precious. But in the competitive showring, us breeders and exhibitors are after accolades given by judges. So whilst we may or may not always agree with their decisions we are the ones that subject our dogs to their scrutiny and nobody forces us to. So we either like it or lump it.

I truly understand and accept the fact that each dog/bitch cannot promise you show quality pups.

Amen!

Cheers everyone...Wink

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 28, 2004, 11:56 PM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 29, 2004, 12:06 AM

Post #140 of 161 (2806 views)
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Re: [clangan] ... Got something to say? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
By Clangan:

" ... Someone will be quiet soon, I guaratee that!!!! ..."

" ... Gypsy always get hunted down!!! ..."



TongueCoolLaugh

... If got something to say ... POST IT ... so that we can all read what you have to say ...

Tongue


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 29, 2004, 12:13 AM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 29, 2004, 12:36 AM

Post #141 of 161 (2786 views)
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Re: [clangan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Everytime I think of you, I think of your B'day songs, Somehow, it softens me down , I will let you be, you are at my right mind! Others, I have a reputation to up keep! "To breed champion GR & Boxers?!?" Unsure



"Beautiful Boxer, savadikap!"



Gan

So my singing skills has got me off the hook it would appear, but obviously surchin is still on the hook? Is that correct? Please do correct me if i'm wrong.

And please clarify what you mean by "reputation to up keep" and "to breed champion GR & Boxers?" I'm confused.

Gopi
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 29, 2004, 12:51 AM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 29, 2004, 12:46 AM

Post #142 of 161 (2769 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... yeah ... let's move ... start a new thread ... and those interested can join if they wish ...

I am waiting for replies from breeder friends re: Boon's question on whether one can reasonably expect temperament to "doubled-up" in similar manner as with conformation elements.

Cheers



Actually on second thoughts let's stay. Might be confusing for anyone who has been following this thread. BTW how long do the moderators keep all the posts for? Indefinitely? Or delete after a while??

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 29, 2004, 1:05 AM

Post #143 of 161 (2752 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] ... Got something to say? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 29, 2004, 1:13 AM

Post #144 of 161 (2748 views)
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Re: [surchinmy, LCK] ... Got something to say? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the spirit of puppy.com friendly manner, we should share knowledge!! I do not think anyone should threaten anyone, that's it! Bad for karma!!! Lets get back on dogs issue!

Clangan


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 29, 2004, 2:03 AM

Post #145 of 161 (2726 views)
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Re: [clangan] ... Got something to say? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the spirit of puppy.com friendly manner, we should share knowledge!! I do not think anyone should threaten anyone, that's it! Bad for karma!!! Lets get back on dogs issue!




Glad to read the above post and thank you for clarifying that. TongueWinkSly


LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 29, 2004, 3:08 AM

Post #146 of 161 (2716 views)
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Re: [clangan] ... Got something to say? [In reply to] Can't Post

"... In the spirit of puppy.com friendly manner, we should share knowledge!! I do not think anyone should threaten anyone, that's it! Bad for karma!!! Lets get back on dogs issue! - ..."


This I agree ... Smile ... life is difficult enough - no need for bad karma ...

Cheers


timchan
Member


Oct 29, 2004, 4:40 AM

Post #147 of 161 (2696 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post

CoolHi LCK,

Who would use their real name in pup.com? I would fear for my life as I do not know who I am conversing with...This is a "chat-room" and no one uses their real name...

This will be my last post in this thread as I do not think we're heading anywhere....

My last line goes....to my opinion, MKA is responsible to verify and authenticate each and every litter that is being registered. I believe that they used to do that even in the small town of IPOH. MKA members would drop by to look at the pups and their parents. Well, if you want to have a good organization, why not take all the proper procedures into account?

If another Kennel Association comes into place (which I do hope in near future) and give a stiff competition to MKA by just upholding a little more integrity and audit on their litter registration itself, I believe that MKA is going to have a run for their money!

Adios Amigos!Wink


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 29, 2004, 8:24 PM

Post #148 of 161 (2667 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
CoolHi LCK,

Who would use their real name in pup.com? I would fear for my life as I do not know who I am conversing with...This is a "chat-room" and no one uses their real name...
I use my real name and have done so all along. Most people know who i am. My kennel name is posted. Only those who have things to hide or are mischief makers have good reason to hide their true identity. This is a doggy forum not a "dating forum" so no chance of your wife catching you trying to find a girlfriend. Or am i the only one who uses my real name and everyone else is a puff of smoke in cyber space.
This will be my last post in this thread as I do not think we're heading anywhere.... I guess you still can't accept my point so your solution is to end it. I guess it will mean we won't have any major arguments! Laugh

My last line goes....to my opinion, MKA is responsible to verify and authenticate each and every litter that is being registered. I believe that they used to do that even in the small town of IPOH. MKA members would drop by to look at the pups and their parents. Well, if you want to have a good organization, why not take all the proper procedures into account?
Will looking at the parents guarantee that the puppies in the whelping box are from the said sire or dam? What happens if the sire lives in another state? You obviously assume that the litter inspectors have super special DNA scanning eyes, such that simply by looking at the pups they can see the DNA compostion and can GUARANTEE the heritage of the said pups? PLEASE lah BRUDDER!!!! MadCrazyBlush

I'm sorry but why is it Malaysians requrie MKA to be police?? It's not their job to be police. When a breeder submits the paperwork saying dog X & bitch Y has been mated and these are the puppies, the onus lies on the breeder to tell the truth, NOT the to run after you and be mata mata. Why is it that every other kennel club in the world can run without litter inspectors but Malaysians insist that the should inspect every single litter??? Can't Malaysians be honest? My opinion aside, the DOES have litter inspectors who if i am not mistaken randomly check litters. So what are you all up in arms about. It seems to me that the issue is not MKA but dishonest members. You see if a breeder is dishonest and lies about a litter - and sells it on to an unsupecting buyer then if the buyer discovers that he has been had, he should then take it up with the seller and NOT the. The seller cheated him NOT the. Shocked

On the pedigree it states the following :
**We certify that the above is a true extract of the entry in the Association's Stud Book. **Every registration at the implies submission by one person registering, to the Rules and Regulations in all Canine matters. Does it say anywhere that they guarantee you that what the breeder has submitted to them and told them is gospel?? In the UK etc. they state "The information contained in this Pedigree is true to the best of our knowledge." You see all of you fail to truly understand what you can and can't hold against the. You all do not fully understand how the system works and operates and listen to others with similar knowledge and exposure and thing that that is gospel? Please lah - if and when they are in the wrong blame them, but don't simply shoot off your mouth and make statements which are generalised and unfair. Go and read the print and understand what it means not what YOU think it SHOULD mean. FrownPirateTongue There is one way to solve all this and that is DNA testing lah. But then please bear in mind that the prices of the pups will shoot up as us breeders will be passing on those costs to YOU the buyer as you are the one desperate to know the truth. I guess in time they may well introduce such measures as is beginning in a few countries around the world. Until then market forces will be in force and mean that people will have to wise up and go to reputable breeders. With such forums as this people now have access to information and can make educated decisions without being conned. AngelicBlush

To you the pedigree cert is worthless, but to me bec what is contained in my pedigrees is true, it is worth a lot bec it records the heritage of my dogs, which as a breeder is very important to me. Tongue

If another Kennel Association comes into place (which I do hope in near future) and give a stiff competition to MKA by just upholding a little more integrity and audit on their litter registration itself, I believe that MKA is going to have a run for their money!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but once again you demonstrate your total failure to understand the system of how canine registration bodies work. You can start a club tomorrow and you can go ahead and issue registration certificates, but that is totally worthless to any of us breeders of note as your club will have no recognition or ties with any world canine bodies like MKA already has. You will merely be another UKC? Do you know who they are? Breeders of any worth will always want to be associated with an organisation with international recognition and association. Crazy It's like you making your own selfmade passport and trying to enter another country. The other country doesn't recognise the Passport of the District of Ulu Yam, but only that of Malaysia. Laugh So if you want to talk about worthless - any pedigree NOT issued by the in Malaysia is TOTALLY WORTHLESS. Tongue If you're really keen on dogs get a FULL and complete understanding of how the system works before you all simply listen to coffee shop talk and take it as gospel, come onto forums and hantam hantam.
Adios Amigos!Wink Yeah whatever dude. Don't run away lah. I've had a very interesting discourse with you. LCK Cool

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 29, 2004, 8:25 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 29, 2004, 9:56 PM

Post #149 of 161 (2650 views)
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Re: [timchan] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote

Who would use their real name in pup.com? I would fear for my life as I do not know who I am conversing with...This is a "chat-room" and no one uses their real name...

TIM : Think again and i hope i have something behind u before u generalized the matter.Crazy LCK : u r not the only one that use the REAL name.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 29, 2004, 11:25 PM

Post #150 of 161 (2630 views)
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Re: [boon] Breeding "Show or Work?" [In reply to] Can't Post


TIM : Think again and i hope i have something behind u before u generalized the matter.Crazy LCK : u r not the only one that use the REAL name.



Oh i c Blush I didn't know BOON was your real name UnsureAngelic I thought BOON is an acronym like UMNO or MCA LaughTongueTongueTongueTongue

LCK Cool
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

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