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Tell us your view on devocalization





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Poll: Tell us your view on devocalization
Devocalization should be banned
Devocalization can be considered if my dog is disturbing neighbour
Not sure
View Results (254 votes)
 

nicky_spykeaz
Doggyman


Jun 12, 2005, 4:30 AM

Post #26 of 43 (24818 views)
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Re: [Khoobg] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

what is a dog who cannot bark?? why not get a sony Aibo..control it bark...only more expensive..why destroy god creature..so to me..devocalization is a BAN BAN BAN!!!!


PSY
K9 Kaki


Jun 12, 2005, 6:03 PM

Post #27 of 43 (24811 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

Read all the reply, thank god not many, but most of you if all of you seem to miss the whole point hear blaming the vet for doing it etc. As dog owners and dog lover, nono of you ever blame the owner. why? why? why?

Everything the dog does is the fault of the owner :

1. Do you know the breed of dog you have, please please don't go down that road because it is cute or feel sorry for it.

Most owners devocalise their dogs because

1. They live in a condo or apartment where you are not suppose to keep a dog. Neighbours complains, dog barking all the time, that is whay most toy dogs and hunting dogs do and last whatever the breed, owners are just useless dog tariners in fact I have heard some owners gives lame excuses like "oh he/she will calm down in a few minutes".

The people who leaves opposite my house has a Lab and a badly bred looking Lab. which I think is a Beagle X Lab. These dogs a barking dogs so when they are away they will bark at anything for hours on end. I have complain to them and still nothing is done so please advise me what to do next, I am short of shooting them, if I have a gun. I have three dogs, Weimer , Dob and Dane they do not bark unless a good reason, like when someone approach the gate or walk pass the house in a manacing way, I train them and it works.

So, again I ask who is it to blame and please don't bring god into it as it has nothing to do with him but us owners. De-vocalising I am for it.


JoeSmith
K9 Maniac


Jun 13, 2005, 6:45 AM

Post #28 of 43 (24804 views)
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Re: [PSY] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

I do understand your frustration with the neighbor and his untrained, neglected dog. However, devocalization punishes and handicaps the dog for no other reason then to be owned by a useless and/or careless owner.

You are right, that proper training, socialization and spending time with the dog (if not simply sharing life) is the key for a happy dog, like your dogs.

I am strictly against devocalization and would rather support it when the owner turns to the or dog shelter to find a suitable new family instead.


nicky_spykeaz
Doggyman


Jun 13, 2005, 6:57 AM

Post #29 of 43 (24804 views)
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Re: [PSY] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

that why i do not agree with devocalization because like your dog and mine dog, they dont bark 4 no particular reason...there must be a reason they bark..there could be a thousand..just see how patiece you can notice why they bark..it how you spend time training the dog and how you social with your dog, i think you misunderstood me..i am blaming on those owner who dont know what dog they have..because of they lack of the knowledge, the dog at the end suffer, that the reason i said, why destroy god natural creature, we r all god creature, either you like it or not..if i devocalized a human, what will you said..if any1 like you and me bother to study more on a breed or a dog before getting it, i think this world will be very peaceful..for this i recommand those who dont know anyhting about dog to get a aibo at least it can train that you even need to spent time with an aibo in order to make it interesting to play with not to mention a living thing..

if devocalization was an answer for any1 who live in the apartment, i suggest you dont keep the dog as a pet..actually at first me dont care what damage devocalization will do to the dog until i have read something that i wish to share with you..

www.kstatecollegian.com/stories/102902/new_debark.shtml

this is something if you can bother to read as i know it is very long...Smile

Fact: Dogs bark.
Fact: Barking can be good.
Fact: Barking can drive us nuts.

It is part of their normal and natural communication and behavior. Dogs can bark for appropriate and good reasons, such as when strangers approach our house, they hear an odd noise, or they are herding sheep. Most of us want our dogs to be "watch dogs" and alert us to anything unusual. But dogs can also bark inappropriately. In two scientific surveys of dog owners, approximately 1/3 of them reported their dogs barked excessively. To control barking in our dogs, we first need to understand why they are barking.

Types of canine vocal communication

Dogs, as well as wolves use many types of vocalizations to communicate. This communication starts very early in life. Young puppies make a mewing-like sound when they are searching for food or warmth. Louder crying sounds are heard if the puppy is hurt or frustrated. As dogs get older, they make five main classes of sounds: howls, growls, grunts, whines, and barks. Each of these classes of sounds is used in different situations.

Howling is used as a means of long-range communication in many different circumstances. Howls are more often associated with wolves, but dogs howl too. Wolves often howl to signify territorial boundaries, locate other pack members, coordinate activities such as hunting, or attract other wolves for mating. Dogs may howl as a reaction to certain stimuli such as sirens.

Growling can occur in very different activities. It is used to threaten, warn, in defense, in aggression, and to show dominance. But growling is also used in play as well. By looking at the body posture we should be able to tell the difference. Growls during aggression are accompanied by a stare or snarl, and the growling dog often remains stationary. Play-growls occur in combination with a happy tail and a play bow to signal willingness to play. These dogs are often moving and jumping about to entice play.

Grunts in dogs are the equivalent of contented sighs in people. They can also be heard when dogs are greeting each other or people.

Whines or whimpers are short- or medium-range modes of communication. Dogs may whine when they greet each other, are showing submissiveness, are frustrated or in pain, to obtain attention, and sometimes in defense. Dogs generally whine more than wolves, perhaps because they use the whine more as an attention-seeking behavior, and are often rewarded for it. Think about it. The first sound you may hear from a new puppy is the whine at night when he finds himself alone. We often are guilty of unintentionally reinforcing this whining by giving the puppy the attention he wants.

Barking is another mode of communication that seems to be more common in dogs than other canine species. Again, this may be the result of human encouragement. Certain breeds have been bred to bark as part of their watchdog or herding duties. Barking is used to alert or warn others and defend a territory, to seek attention or play, to identify oneself to another dog, and as a response to boredom, excitement, being startled, lonely, anxious, or teased.

Why dogs bark

Poodle Alert/warning barks are the type of barks some owners encourage. They want their dog to alert them to the presence of a danger or suspicious stranger. Warning barks tend to become more rapid as the intruder approaches. Aggressive barks are low in pitch and may be combined with growls. We need to be able to distinguish warning barks from barks due to fear.

Attention-seeking barks are most often used by puppies to get you to focus your attention on them. They can become very insistent and hard to ignore, but ignore them we must.

Play/excitement barks are often short and sharp. These barks are common if the dog gets too excited with the game. Often a time-out is in order.

Self-identification barking is what you may be hearing when your dog seems to be answering other dogs he hears barking in the neighborhood. It is his way of saying, "I am over here."

Bored barkers simply need an outlet for their energy and a more stimulating environment.

Lonely/anxious barking occurs if your dog is experiencing separation anxiety. The barking can become self-reinforcing as he becomes more stimulated and anxious. Anxious barks tend to get higher in pitch as the dog becomes more upset. This type of barking can be especially annoying to your neighbors.

Startle barking occurs in response to an unfamiliar or sudden sound or movement. As with an alert/warning bark, we need to be able to control this type of barking quickly.

As you can see, there are many reasons for barking and most barking is a normal behavior. There are some instances in which barking is considered pathological. This will be discussed later in the article.

Characteristics of a barker

Studies have been done to try to determine which dogs are more likely to be barkers. Although there was no difference in the percentage of excessive barkers between males and females, there was a breed difference. Beagles, Terriers, and some herding breeds tend to bark more. That is not surprising, since this is one of the characteristics for which they were bred. Excessive barking can occur in purebred dogs as well as mixed breeds.

General principles for controlling undesirable barking

* If we want to control barking, we need a dog who can obey us and relax. The dog needs to look to her owner for behavior clues. If we can call her, have her lie down (dogs do not bark as much when lying down) and stay, we are well on the way to solving a nuisance barking problem. In addition, there are some common principles we can use in modifying barking behavior.

* First, in most cases shouting "No" is only going to make matters worse since the dog is thinking you are barking too (and is probably happy you joined in).

* Be consistent. Pick a one-word command e.g., "Enough" for the behavior you want and always use that word in the same tone of voice. Everyone in the household must use the same command and act identically.

* Be patient with your dog and yourself. Changing behavior takes a lot of time, and you need to take it slowly, one step at a time. If you become angry at your dog, the chance to correctly modify the behavior will be gone.

* Reward the dog for good behavior. Positive reinforcement is much more powerful than negative reinforcement. Physical punishment will do nothing but make your dog fearful of you and break down the bond you wish to have with her. Food treats are fine to use as a reward at first. Often, picking a very special treat like small pieces of cooked chicken or hot dog will make the reward seem even better. As time goes on, you will not give a treat every time, sometimes just rewarding with a "Good Dog" and a pat on the dog's chest.

* Do not hug your dog, talk soothingly, or otherwise play into your dog's barking. Your dog may then believe there really was something of which to be alarmed, afraid, or anxious. This reinforces her behavior and she will likely bark even more the next time.

* Control the situation. As much as possible, set up situations to use as training. Practice in short, frequent sessions, generally 5-10 minutes each.

* Do not be afraid to ask an expert. Animal trainers, behaviorists, and your veterinarian can give you valuable advice. Having them witness your dog's barking episodes may give them valuable clues on helping you solve the barking problem.

Next, we will look at the different types of barkers and more specific ways to modify their behavior.

Alert/warning barkers

Dogs that bark at mail carriers, joggers running by the house, or cyclers on the street naturally have their barking reinforced. They see the mail carrier, they bark, and the mail carrier leaves. The dog thinks, "Boy, I'm good. My barking made that person leave." In modifying the dog's behavior, we need to overcome this reinforcement.

Sometimes, by just preventing the dog from seeing the intruding mail carrier, we can solve the problem. Often, however, we need to do more. First, we must make sure we are not rewarding the dog for any type of barking. If the dog barks when she wants to eat, and we feed her, we are rewarding vocalization. If we try to ignore the barking, but eventually cave-in and give attention, the dog learns that short barks will not do the trick, but excessive and extended barking will.

After the dog has alerted us to an "intruder," we need a way to signal the dog after one or two barks that she was a good dog for warning us, but now we will take control. Often the command "Enough" will accomplish that goal.

Remember: Do not inadvertently reinforce barking by giving verbal or physical reassurance to a barking dog.

To teach "Enough," set up a situation in which your puppy will bark, but not excessively; knock on the door, for instance. After one or two barks, stop knocking and make a sound or distraction that will get her to switch her attention to you. If she stops barking, immediately say "Enough" and reward her with a treat and praise. If she does not stop barking, put that delicious treat right in front of her nose. When she stops barking for a second or two say "Enough," wait a few more seconds and if she is quiet, give her the treat and praise. Timing is critical � she must be quiet when you give her the treat or she will think she is being rewarded for continuing to bark. Be sure to say "Enough" when she is quiet, not when she is barking. Later, as she associates "Enough" with being quiet, you can use it as a command to stop barking.

Fear barkers

Some dogs may start with an alert or warning bark, but then progress to a bark that is associated with fear. One of the more common examples of this is those dogs that bark at approaching strangers.

If your dog is barking out of fear of people, first he must learn to be obedient, defer to you for his behavior cues, and relax. Then you can start setting up situations in which people approach from far off, and as your dog remains relaxed, give him treats. Slowly (over days and weeks) have people approach him only to the point where he remains relaxed and you can reward him. As people come even closer, have them throw treats his way so he starts associating people with good things happening. While this controlled training is going on, it is best to not put him in situations in which you do not have control, e.g., walking down a busy street.

Do not encourage your puppy to bark at people. You may set a bad habit in motion and he may become suspicious and even fearful of people. Chances are, he will bark at odd situations and strangers without you telling him to.

Attention-seeking barkers

Young puppies, as well as adults soon learn that barking will incite attention from us. The problem is that dogs will be happy with any attention they receive, be it negative or positive. A stern "No" from you is still attention, so the puppy got what she wanted and you reinforced the behavior. It is best to just ignore this type of barking, as hard as that may be.

Sometimes, the use of a remote correction is helpful in controlling this type of barking. Coins in an empty soda can, foghorns, or other noisemakers can be used to startle the dog while she is barking. When she is startled, she stops barking, and at that point, you can give her a substitute for barking � a toy, a walk. Just make sure she stops barking before you give the substitute or the dog will perceive it as a reward for barking.

Play/excitement barkers

If your dog barks excessively during play, it is best to let her calm down and slow down the game. If she continues to bark, stop playing until she has settled down.

Self-identification barkers

This type of barking is quite instinctive and can sometimes be difficult to control, especially in a household of multiple dogs. Often there is an instigator dog and all other dogs join in. This type of barking may be controlled using a similar approach to alert/warning barks, i.e., obedience and relaxation methods with a substitute behavior offered, like playing with a toy.

Bored barkers

Dogs who bark when they are bored may be similar to dogs seeking attention or those that are lonely. Dogs who are bored need something to do besides barking. We need to give them a more stimulating environment and usually a lot more exercise. A tired dog is less likely to be bored. Toys such as Kongs and Buster Cubes that can be filled with treats can get your dog's brain, as well as his body, working.

Lonely/anxious barkers

Dogs who bark when they are alone may be showing a symptom of their separation anxiety. As we mentioned, these dogs are in the midst of a vicious circle � the more lonely they are, the more they bark, the more upset they get, the more they bark, the barking gets them more upset and they bark more � and the cycle continues.

We need to work with the dog on the underlying behavior of separation anxiety. We can do this several ways. As in alert/warning barking, we need to be able to teach the dog simple obedience and how to relax. Then we can work on the problem of the separation anxiety.

We can start out by leaving or acting like we are leaving for a short time - and before the dog starts getting nervous and barking (this may be one second at first), we come back. This way, we are not rewarding barking, but rewarding relaxation and silence. We gradually extend the time we are gone and return before the dog gets anxious. If your dog is anxious even if you leave the room, then you will need to start by just taking several steps away from her while she remains relaxed. While going through this behavior modification, you cannot go too slow � you can go too fast.

We often need to change our habits too. Often the dog starts getting nervous when we go through our routine of leaving. Maybe you are like me, and the last thing you do before you leave is put on your shoes and pick up the keys. Vary this and put on your shoes and pick up your keys � but do not leave. Go to the couch and read a book. If you only play the radio on weekends when you are home, turn it on during your workdays. As hard as it may be, set your alarm on weekends, get up, but stay home. Continue these changes in routine until your dog does not pay attention to your cues anymore. It is also very important to not give your dog a lot of attention when you leave.

When you are gone, make sure your dog is comfortable with light, warmth, a radio playing, toys. If your dog is outside, a doghouse may help her feel more secure. Some indoor dogs will be more content if they can watch what is going on outside, be it traffic or chipmunks. Others may be more anxious if they can look out and do better with the drapes closed. You will need to decide what makes your dog less anxious. Make sure you give your dog a lot of exercise a half hour or so before you leave. As with boredom, tired dogs are less likely to become anxious.

If your dog happens to not only bark, but destroy things while you are gone, a crate may be necessary. Never punish your dog when you come home and find something chewed or torn. If you do, your dog will soon associate your return with being punished. That is going to make her even more anxious. If you videotape these destructive dogs, you will often see that the destructive behavior does not begin until just before the owner's usual time of return, when the dog becomes anxious about the owner's impending return and punishment.

Just as you should not punish your dog on your return, do not give her a lot of attention either - then your returning home will not be such a big deal to her. Instead, come in the door, say "Hello" and go about a household task. Once your dog has settled down and is quiet, then you can spend some quality time with her.

Initially, while you are working on behavior modification it may be helpful to get a neighbor or pet sitter to come in once or several times during the day. This will help break up the long hours the dog has without you.

Finally, if the separation anxiety is severe, medications are often needed during the behavior modification process. Medication alone will not solve the problem, but it can be a useful adjunct to the process. Consult with your veterinarian to determine which medication would be most appropriate.

Startled barkers

We can best curb startled barking using the similar techniques for alert/warning barks. Teaching "Enough" will really help in this situation. If a certain sound consistently startles your dog, record that sound. Start by playing it back very softly so your dog will remain relaxed when she hears it. If she remains quiet, then reward her. Over days and weeks, gradually increase the volume until she is no longer startled into barking when she hears it.

Pathologic barking

Barking that is a simple nuisance is not the same as barking that is pathologically excessive. Most of the barking we have talked about thus far is normal barking behavior except for that connected to separation anxiety. Barking can be abnormal or "pathologic" in situations of separation anxiety, as a result of an obsessive-compulsive disorder in which a dog barks very excessively or at inappropriate things (a leaf falling), or in dogs who become hyper-excited with the approach of people or other dogs. Dogs who become aggressive during barking episodes need to undergo behavior modification for the aggression before we attempt to modify the barking behavior.

For dogs with pathologic barking or additional behavioral problems, it is highly recommended to use a team-approach to the problem. The team consists of all family members, an animal behaviorist, and a veterinarian. Each family member must work with the dog in the same way, using the same commands. The animal behaviorist may be able to cue in on unique characteristics of your dog's behavior and help you set up training situations that will be most effective. Your veterinarian may also be able to give you insights as well as prescribe appropriate medications to enable the dog to be more responsive to the behavior modification.

Controlling barking through corrective collars

There are numerous collars on the market that produce an electrical stimulation, an irritating ultrasonic sound, or a smell (offensive to the dogs, but not to us) when the dog barks. These may be used as an adjunct to behavior modification. Collars alone will not cure the problem. Unfortunately, these collars to do not always produce the desired effect. For some of these hard-core barkers, the punishment for barking is not sufficient to get them to stop. They would rather bark and be punished than not bark at all. For dogs who bark when they are anxious, the collar's correction may make them even more anxious.

In some situations, these corrective collars have been found to be useful. For instance, there is a citronella collar which gives off a citrus smell when the dog barks. This can alert you to the fact the dog was barking while you were gone since the citrus smell still lingers in the air. In situations where you must change the barking behavior quickly or you may lose your dog (or apartment), a bark-control collar may be used while you are away from the dog. When using a bark-control collar, remember that you not only have to stop the bad behavior, you need to reward the good. Your dog can not learn an appropriate alternative to barking if someone is not present to teach it to him.

Another type of collar that may be effective is a halter collar. This type of collar looks more like a horse halter; brand names include Gentle Leader/Promise System Canine Head Collar and Halti Head collars. When you pull on the leash portion, a portion of the collar tightens around the dog's muzzle. By using a quick pull of the lead, saying "Enough" when the dog is quiet, and then rewarding him, you may find the training goes faster.

De-barking

Debarking is a surgical procedure that removes the vocal cords from dogs. There are two surgical approaches, one through the mouth, and the other through an incision in the neck. Debarking will NOT result in a silent dog. A dog who has undergone the procedure will still attempt to bark, and make a hoarse sound, which some people find more irritating than the bark itself. Debarking will not cure the reason for barking the fear, boredom, or anxiety will still be there.

Preventing nuisance barking in puppies

Teaching your puppy appropriate behavior from the beginning is easier than changing behavior that has become a bad habit. Some behavior we may think of as cute in a puppy will not be cute in an adult dog. So, think ahead to avoid potential problems.

The first few nights after bringing your puppy home will be the hardest. You may want to put his crate in your bedroom. The puppy will be more secure with you near. Security builds trust. Trust will decrease the possibility of separation anxiety in the future. Just remember not to give any attention to the puppy if he is whining � that will only reward his undesirable behavior.

By starting to train your puppy in obedience and relaxation at an early age, you can greatly reduce the probability your puppy will grow into a problem barker. Nip problems in the bud and always look at why the puppy is barking. Is it fear, anxiety, attention-seeking? Use the appropriate measures to treat the underlying problem.

Remember that if for some reason you want your dog to bark on command, or in a certain situation, you must also be able to teach him to stop on command. Teach "Enough" at an early age. This was described under "Alert/warning Barkers".

Introduce the young puppy to situations that may cause anxiety later on. Get your puppy used to walking on the sidewalk along a busy street. Expose your puppy to sounds like vacuum cleaners, hair dryers, and other noises. Take things slow so your puppy does not become anxious while being exposed to these new things. Reward the puppy when he is quiet and relaxed.

Puppy classes are a great place for your puppy to meet new people and other dogs. He can learn to obey you even when there are numerous distractions. You also have a trainer present who can help you with any potential problems.

In short, it will be a lot more fun for everybody if your puppy learns to communicate through a wag of the tail and looking to you for guidance rather than through excessive and relentless barking.


so i use this to help me to train my friend dog from barking like nut last time..maybe you can share with your neighbour or even you have time, help to train them..mayb your nieghbour know nuts about training..sorry to be rude cuz me know nothing about your neighbour Smile

Conclusion, i believe there is nothing in this world cannot be correct only depend on the individual. Debarking to me is still not an option that should be carry out regardless in any situation kecuali if medical reason is the question..

i hope we can have more discussion on doggie because 4 me who is still learning, would like to learn more from other doggie lover
Have a nice day


PSY
K9 Kaki


Jun 13, 2005, 8:41 AM

Post #30 of 43 (24802 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Thank-you for your response and I must apologise if I have offended you in anyway however I do see your point and apprciate very much the article you have enclosed. I have started reading but yet to finish. Again, dog owners again. Human de-vocalisation, I wish to de vocalise a cousin of mine boy, if air cost money I am now a millionaire do not know how many times over ......

Joke aside, one just cannot just ban it as some people just like to keep dogs in apartment especially will resort to this. In a way I am glad M.K.A. do disqualified dogs for showing if they are.

Again, thanks for the article will resume reading.


nicky_spykeaz
Doggyman


Jun 13, 2005, 1:45 PM

Post #31 of 43 (24791 views)
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Re: [PSY] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

nolah...what important that we agree on one particular thing....that is the love and joy we give and get for our canine..

let share more discussion next time..so i can learn more about doggie world FrownFrown


tengteng
Novice

Oct 5, 2005, 10:02 PM

Post #32 of 43 (24695 views)
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Re: [Khoobg] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry to say this but devocalizing a dog is s.t.u.p.i.d thing to do. Dogs actually use their voice/bark to communicate with you sometimes. What if something is wrong and they try to warn you? And could you imagine someone take your voice away from you..aiyo...just cannot imagine leh


little_ann
Novice


Oct 19, 2005, 10:09 AM

Post #33 of 43 (24651 views)
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Re: [nicky_spykeaz] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

Totally disagree~Frown..a dog that cannot bark is a cacat dog liao ..Frown


nicky_spykeaz
Doggyman


Oct 19, 2005, 9:32 PM

Post #34 of 43 (24645 views)
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Re: [little_ann] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Totally disagree~Frown..a dog that cannot bark is a cacat dog liao ..Frown


erh...u didnt read the whole post i assume...i am the one again devocalization....sorry to cause any misunderstand....


leecy
Ultra ALPHA


Oct 22, 2005, 1:40 PM

Post #35 of 43 (24626 views)
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Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear Forumers

Is it fair to the dog to undergo devocalization with the risks of anesthesia, surgery, and postoperative complications, or is it better to have the dog euthanized or surrendered to an animal control center if behavior modification has failed to control recalcitrant barking?

The fact that if a dog's bark is uncontrollable, nobody else will want to adopt he/she, the authorities might issue an order to either stop the barking or euthanize the dog. in such condition, maybe the dog should be allowed to devocalize.

Devocalization doesnt mean that ur dog cant bark at all after surgery, he/she can still bark, but with a much lower tone.

Purchasing an electrical shock collar is more cruel to a certain extend since the dog will feel traumatized whenever he feels like barking.

Thus, I support the statement of:
  • to ban it completely except for genuine nuisance problems, and
  • that only boarded surgeons registered with local authorities are permitted to perform the procedure.





  • PSY
    K9 Kaki


    Oct 24, 2005, 2:31 AM

    Post #36 of 43 (24607 views)
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    Re: [leecy] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

    HI leecy,

    Read your posting as mentioned earlier on this thread, sometimes one just need to de-vocalise a dog due to reasons we do not contemplate of having. Most important of all, is keeping the dog with it's owner insead of displacing it, so de-vocalise is the best option. As you are aware there are great dog lovers who live in apartments, some with neighbours that cannot take the barking but do not mind the smell (whatever the smell maybe) so the option here is limited.

    As for collars, you must know more before you accept the ignorant attitude that is cruel. One needs training to be able to use. My dogs, and I proudly say this are remote collar trained and to assure myself it does not hurt the dogs I have worn the collar round my neck and press the button and it does not hurt, if it did I would not have use it on my dogs.

    Secondly, if these remote collar do abuse the dogs, do you think the American A.K.C. and other establishments will let these manufacturers make them and sell them?

    On another note, do you know a roll up newspaper can be a lethal weapon, so in short it all boils down to the user of the instruments.


    leecy
    Ultra ALPHA


    Oct 24, 2005, 10:03 AM

    Post #37 of 43 (24601 views)
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    Re: [PSY] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

    PSY

    Nice talking with u, hey thanks for enlightening me abt the electrical collar.

    But I got a ques in mind, juz for discussion. Although the dog collar wont cause any injury or even hurt the dog, will the dog feel traumatized whenever they want to bark? (thats the cruelty i mentioned abt, not the overpowered electric)

    I think a dog owner who having the experience is the most suitable candidates to reply us abt this matter. I will be more than happy if my statement is proven wrong. Smile




    PSY
    K9 Kaki


    Oct 24, 2005, 3:36 PM

    Post #38 of 43 (24592 views)
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    Re: [leecy] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi leecy,

    Sorry you misunderstood me or more like I did not clarify my point. The remote-collar is not an anti-bark collar. It is a collar whereby the trainer can set the amount of pulse to the dog. You set it by activating it at the lowest point and you watch the dog's reaction and once you see the dog re-act by a slight movement you stop there and that is the point of reference for that dog. You still have to press the button to activate followed by a command of "no" or whatever and then after several times you just activate it without command and the dog should relate it to "no". One should not set the rating to a point the dog "yelps" that is cruel. As for anti-bark collar, I am not very certain how the thing works so no comment. Remote collar do not traumatise a dog if use properly, just like choke collar and pinch collar, then again with these collars you can also traumatise a dog if you use it the wrong way. I personally like the remote-collar as I do not loose my temper and hurt the dog. Anyway, if I did not mention earlier, my dob and my dane are the two using remote-collar whereby my weimer is on choke collar. My dane is using the remote collar is due to the fact that I just started to train her, she is 7 years old, my dob too young at 20 months old, still very brash but she did well in her pre-novice and novice trial.


    leecy
    Ultra ALPHA


    Oct 24, 2005, 4:44 PM

    Post #39 of 43 (24587 views)
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    Re: [PSY] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

    PSY

    thanks for ur explanations, make me know more abt remote-collar then. May I know how much is the remote collar? & do u know how much it will cost to devocalise a dog? If either of these options is at a high price range, then price might be a factor on deciding which to use.. Smile




    PSY
    K9 Kaki


    Oct 24, 2005, 5:40 PM

    Post #40 of 43 (24578 views)
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    Re: [leecy] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

    leecy,

    I have no idea how much devocalise op will cost, however a remote collar will cost you RM1,300.00 and it comes with a one to one training of 5 lessons for you and your dog. The advantage is the remote-collar can be use to train your other dogs in the future and secondly, I forgot to mention is it also act as an invisible leash when you walk your dog. Example, if your dog is very good at "heel" work on a leash, you can walk your dog off leash with a remote-collar. With a leash, you tug at it if your dog walks a bit too fast or lagging, with a remote collar you just activate it and correction can be done.


    leecy
    Ultra ALPHA


    Oct 26, 2005, 9:21 PM

    Post #41 of 43 (24567 views)
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    Re: [PSY] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

    PSY

    Well definitely we cant value a dog in money term but RM1,300 might not be affordable for all range of the ppl, especially students or lower ranked workers. I assume devocalizing operation should be much cheaper since there are breeders who willing to do it on many of their dogs. Thus, although we can't juz simply devocalize a dog but it might be needed as a last resort if there arent other better alternatives.




    potter
    Member


    Feb 9, 2007, 12:27 AM

    Post #42 of 43 (23704 views)
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    Re: [leecy] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

    I have just one thought in my head when it comes to devocalization. It is painful!!!! Please google and you'd know how painful it is to have a dog devocalized!!! I am talking about physical pain after surgery!!!!! Its simply inhumane. If living in apartment like I do, train your dog! Give him/her more toys, I am refering to natural safe chew toys like bully sticks, Merrick flossies and walk them more to curb their barking.


    BoxerMan
    Novice


    Sep 11, 2008, 10:15 AM

    Post #43 of 43 (19062 views)
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    Re: [Khoobg] Tell us your view on devocalization [In reply to] Can't Post

    Personally I consider this to be a question of ethics, If a child cry's too much would you remove his/her vocal cords, no you would not. what is different about an animal.

    I totally disagree with this practice, I believe it should be outlawed and those that partake in it should be severely punished.

    This is just my opinion of course.

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