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GS Czech or german lines...?







gorbapa
Novice

Oct 2, 2003, 1:52 AM

Post #1 of 15 (3181 views)
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GS Czech or german lines...? Can't Post

Hi,

Saw a chat that Czech lines actually have the right traits of a GS rather than a german lines as they tend to be more of show lines. ? betulkah??

am looking for a GS (nothing more than 8 weeks ) from a good working line but have failed to meet one so far. called MKA (boy they were helpful in providing breeder info) but the prob I found is that, by the time you call the so-called breeders, some are actually not breeders. it's one of those that since i have litters now, let's sell them and if the price on the papers are such and such, I must ask for the same. bloody conman!!

anyone can give info on some reputable breeders, let me know email gorbapa2002@yahoo.co.uk
<<--gorbapa-->>


boon
Doggyman


Oct 2, 2003, 2:28 AM

Post #2 of 15 (3172 views)
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Re: [gorbapa] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Gorbapa,

U r about on the right track now, let me introduce u a real lover, real person for working german mongrel. he should be able to guide u and share with u his knowledge.

Paging for PSD, pls return my post.....oooops....sorry should be reply my post.

muakakkakakkaTongue

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 2, 2003, 8:45 PM

Post #3 of 15 (3155 views)
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Re: [Boon,gorbapa] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Boon,

Don't mislead newcomers lah!. There are many more people here who can help. Anyway since I'm here might as well pen down a few lines.



Quote
Saw a chat that Czech lines actually have the right traits of a GS rather than a german lines as they tend to be more of show lines. ? betulkah??


Friend, Where did you get that Idea? Czech, German, etc etc have their share of good dogs and bad dogs. Show lines are show lines different that a working line. No working line breeder in their right mind will ever think of outcrossing their working line to showline......but just to let you know show line breeders are known to be occassionally introducing working lines blood into their showlines in a hope that the temprement got somehow repaired (nice try)


Quote
am looking for a GS (nothing more than 8 weeks ) from a good working line but have failed to meet one so far. called MKA (boy they were helpful in providing breeder info) but the prob I found is that, by the time you call the so-called breeders, some are actually not breeders. it's one of those that since i have litters now, let's sell them and if the price on the papers are such and such, I must ask for the same. bloody conman!!


Stick around and learn more maybe someone can help.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

(This post was edited by PSD on Oct 2, 2003, 8:47 PM)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 2, 2003, 9:20 PM

Post #4 of 15 (3149 views)
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Re: [PSD] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

PSD,

What's so wrong/not right about crossing a showline with a working line?

I've seen one example before. Or so the breeder/trainer claimed.


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 2, 2003, 9:31 PM

Post #5 of 15 (3146 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wildgunsr,



Dont to sound cynical but if your father was in working lines before as written by you then you should know why. From your other post too may I ask why you so hard-up in looking for a working line breeder? You seam to know people in training/breeding and seen examples........Tongue

I'm not about to start philosophical reasoning of what is right or what is wrong here. Will let the viewers decide. Maybe someone else want to put in their opinion.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 3, 2003, 4:17 AM

Post #6 of 15 (3130 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr,PSD] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi wildgunsr,

Quote :
"What's so wrong/not right about crossing a showline with a working line? "
====================================
Well there is nothing wrong of course !, it is up to the individual breeder's decision. But like wht PSD has mentioned earlier, most workingline breeder will be out their mind to do so...! U may ask Why ...? Well ,

1.) first of all why should we introduced extreme hind angulation & "banana" topline into the working stock, & create more problem for ourselve such as HD or even back or spinal problem.....! Wink

2.) Secondly why introduce "shyness & weak nerve" into the working stock when we have been trying to breed it out of working stock , this will be like undoing all the efforts put in by the serious breeder for the last 100 yrs.


And finally even if we do have managed to come wt a dog w/o the above problems but since it is an outcross breeding , it will not be able to reproduce itself......., tell me why should we do it then ! Tongue


To tell U the truth, I used to thk maybe by using the showline we can improve on the bonestrength & size in the progeny but not anymore...coz I found out that I can find what I want in the workingline stock itself .....Cool ..!



Hi PSD,

Quote:
"but just to let you know show line breeders are known to be occassionally introducing working lines blood into their showlines in a hope that the temprement got somehow repaired (nice try) "
===================================
Yup !...just the other day I came across a web site which has a workingline dog wt V. Arlett name behind.......can U imagine that.....Shocked ! LOL...LaughLaugh


Polluxx






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Xana
Dog Kichi


Oct 3, 2003, 11:07 AM

Post #7 of 15 (3124 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, I am from Czech Republic but not any GS specialist. May I connect to your discussion?!Wink
Here are not "only" show dogs. Each GS who wants to defend its Excellent show sign must be very good in schutzhund and have good exterior. I think that trend is withdrawing from "bannana back" (like somebody wrote here) because it was almost unnatural.

You can see really good SHOW GS at web http://www.krasnoocko.cz/. I am afraid it is in CZech only, but you can look at dogs there Angelic

Xanah


gorbapa
Novice

Oct 3, 2003, 6:33 PM

Post #8 of 15 (3119 views)
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Re: [Xana] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dobre den Xana,

I was in czech for over 2 years and got back last year. I regret not getting a good GS while my stay in Europe. do you have any dogs here?

BTW, my czech is very limited to greeting and odering rounds of pivo only.

neskladanou!

gb
<<--gorbapa-->>


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 3, 2003, 7:27 PM

Post #9 of 15 (3115 views)
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Re: [Xana] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Xana,

Welcome to the discusssion ! Cool

Quote :
"Here are not "only" show dogs"
====================================
Correct me if I m wrong here, but as I understand most of the Old Czech line r workingline, these breedings revolved around one kennel, owned by the Czechoslovakian Army’s Pohranicni Straze (Border Patrol) before the fall of communist regime...! As I understand showline is only a recent fad in Czech...and most r out of German showline ...! Wink



Quote:
"I think that trend is withdrawing from "bannana back" (like somebody wrote here) because it was almost unnatural."
====================================
Yes very unnatural,Shocked and yes, SV is making a U-turn in this case but me think it will take some time b4 we will be able to eliminate it totally from the showline. Smile


Quote :
"Each GS who wants to defend its Excellent show sign must be very good in schutzhund "
====================================
Yes...agree that they r some showline GSD (wt reasonably good ScH score) but they r not the best when compare wt what the workingline has to offer. Tongue

Well as U know VA dogs r supposed to be the best of the best, so tell me, has there been any VA dogs who participate in BSP since VA3 Bernd V Lierberg (I thk he was placed 22nd place), Could they even qualify for the championship in the 1st place ?

BTW since U r from Czech , as I understand SVV especially SVV3 is very much harder than ScH3, so is there any Showline who r title up to tht level...?

So as to avoid any misunderstanding here, this post is not to demean/criticize any showline GSD ! Tongue






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 3, 2003, 8:02 PM

Post #10 of 15 (3112 views)
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Re: [PSD] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Dont to sound cynical but if your father was in working lines before as written by you then you should know why. From your other post too may I ask why you so hard-up in looking for a working line breeder? You seam to know people in training/breeding and seen examples........Tongue


PSD, Notice that it was 'my father' and not 'me'? Tongue There's no harm in looking around more to have a better understanding, now is there? Laugh Besides, to know these people, doesn't mean that I agree with their training/breeding programmes Sly

Besides, this is a forum and I was hoping that members could share their views.Wink


(This post was edited by wildgunsr on Oct 3, 2003, 8:08 PM)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 3, 2003, 8:21 PM

Post #11 of 15 (3107 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

CoolCoolCool


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 3, 2003, 9:17 PM

Post #12 of 15 (3103 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wildgunsr,



There are many ways to strike the thoughts flow for better understanding. Mine are just a bit more unique way of expression. Rather than provide straight answer it is sometimes more interesting to make people think it out themselves. Hope it does not offend you too much....Smile

At last, you understand too aint it? Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 3, 2003, 9:53 PM

Post #13 of 15 (3100 views)
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Re: [Xana] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Xana,

Good to see you here. Basicly SV had discovered its foundamental mistake making Showlines what it is today. It is good that some changes are being done to stop the degeneration of the breed. While Working line GSD people will probably never agree with Showlines GSD's standards interpretation, that is altogether another story to tell. Anyway, these 2 lines had gone through over 100 years of evolution making these 2 dogs totally a different dogs altogether. Perhaps it would be best it these remain this way. Let the showlines feature in the ring where they does best and let the working lines remain working and in service.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and glad to hear that in Czech Republic, shows standards are stricter in that senseSmile This is definately good news to the ears.

Anyway, SchH trials although they use the same format, there are 2 types. For showdogs the training and presentation are different than working dogs. The stress level is way different. Therefore not all dogs having SchH3 title are an automatic good worker. As Pollux said well, never seen any showline dogs in the top 10 placing in BSP, nor in WUSV nor in FCI world comp.

Nevertheless as a personal opinion, I prefer the 2 lines to be recognised as a different breed as their temprement, nerve, and working drive are totally different altogether.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

(This post was edited by PSD on Oct 3, 2003, 10:05 PM)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 4, 2003, 4:03 PM

Post #14 of 15 (3075 views)
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Re: [PSD, Xana] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Bro,

Quote :
"Anyway, these 2 lines had gone through over 100 years of evolution "
--------------------------------------------------------
IMO, the diversion started with Martins & their crony(incl those who r in our shore Tongue ) , the reason being simply VA dogs in the 60s & very early 70s were still able to produce progeny that can go to BSP & for work. Wink

I would say the reason is basically down to $$$$$ , the majority ppl want plush coat, OVERsize & less drv.....etc, that is when degeneration started ;

let me quote the breed founder's opinion on this,

""The Internationalism of The Big Bank Balance has been the downfall of the Shepherd Dog.""

- from his book "The German Shepherd Dog in Word & Picture ",






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 7, 2003, 12:08 AM

Post #15 of 15 (3055 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] GS Czech or german lines...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pollux,

Sorry I missed your posting earlier. I think the $$$$$ may not be the thing. The source started from the different interpretation of breed standard. Sometimes some people wanted to have the wonder dog that looks like this and like that but when they are breeding on one physical trait consideration and only that, they tend to lose the other things like nerve and temprement.

To some extent, German showdogs and Czech Showdogs still can find a bit of nerve and temprement left for chereographed SchH work. American lines though is too late for that. Malaysian lines I can only say that is spoilt by puppy millers and yes rings.

To make long story short, the founder has a long vision and he already sees that conformation rings will cause the end of his dogs then. Fortunately there are people left who is clear minded enough to see this and had continued to keep the original lines alive today. These people are far and few but definately does preserve the working qualities.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

 
 




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