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Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy





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jonese20
Novice


Sep 22, 2003, 7:58 PM

Post #1 of 87 (5051 views)
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Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy Can't Post

Hello...wondering if a fellow Labrador Retriever owner could provide some reassurance that I just happened to get "lucky" with Indiana Jones, our 9 month-old chocolate lab. Indy has always been a passive pup, though he is rarely shy now that he is older. He's always been the type of lab to lie down if bored (as opposed to tearing up the house). Lately, though, we've been noticing Indy has been very lethargic - sleep a lot (even when we are home), never has much energy to play, non-interest in his food (we haven't altered the food routine since he's been a little guy). It's almost as though he's depressed.

He is kenneled in an indoor/outdoor kennel during the work days, but we try to come home for lunch at least 2 days/week. I'm worried more about his lack of energy - every single lab puppy I've ever come into contact with (besides Indy) has been a mountain of energy and excitement! Indy can barely keep interest in a good game of fetch.

Am I being too concerned? Is his behavior normal for his age? Is this maybe because he's recently been neutered (at 7 months)? Any advice you could give is much appreciated. Thanks.


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Sep 22, 2003, 9:08 PM

Post #2 of 87 (5043 views)
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Re: [jonese20] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

hello jonese

for retrievers, if they behave this way, normally it's a sign that they're seriously lacking of exercise and are bored stiff - which thus explain the sign of his "depression" you've mentioned.

labbies are fairly active dogs (esp when your dog is still 9 months old only), thus exercises should be provided constantly and consistently, else they'll just lie around the whole day, be less active, get fatter too (is he overweight btw?)

how long do u take him out for walks everyday? how long do you play with him? i would suggest u take him out for jogs whenever you're free (go slow at first, make sure u don't go too far either or you'll tire your boy out). be consistent. remember, lots of exercise.

btw, my golden retriever would show the signs too whenever i got too busy and did not take him out for walks/play with him. a couple of days of good play and exercise and he's back to his old self again :)

hope this helps. if problem not solved, do consider to seek consultation from a vet.





regards,
hunter


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 23, 2003, 6:23 PM

Post #3 of 87 (5026 views)
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Re: [hunter, jonese20] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

   

Hello Hunter & Jonese20... Smile

I saw Jonese20 posting on the other thread ... Normally I'd agree with Hunter ... a lethargic retriever is often bored ... maybe a little overweight ... Smile ... and lacking exercise ... (Hunter & I know this malaise of retrievers well ... *laughs*)

But I suddenly noticed the doggie's age ... The doggie is 8 months old ... and assuming that the doggie is otherwise healthy ... the doggie could be showing symptoms of "growing pains" or sore joints ...

This can occur in growing doggies (usually of medium to large breeds) from between 6 to 12 months ... when their joints ache because they have grown so fast ... the experts say that this happens when the doggie's growing cartilage is starts to gradually mineralizes into bone, sometimes resulting in an uneveb bone surface that friction during joint movement.

http://www.petsurgery.com/growingpains.htm

http://rev.tamu.edu/...ies/02/121902-3.html

If the doggie is suffering "growing pains" ... then exercise is not recommended ... rather the doggie should be allowed to rest and proceed at its own pace ... Smile ...

Most often, the condition of "growing pains" resolves itself as the dog matures ... there is no immediate need for too much concern ... just observe the dog carefuly ... but if the dog seems to be much discomfort - take to the vet and mention the possibility of "osteochondrosis" ... Smile

Cheers ... Smile


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Sep 23, 2003, 7:01 PM

Post #4 of 87 (5023 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

sometimes ppl do not recommend boosting too much protein for the pups.

does overdosage of protein in puppy's food caused the rapid growth, thus lead to growing pain as well?



regards,
hunter


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 23, 2003, 7:33 PM

Post #5 of 87 (5021 views)
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Re: [hunter] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ... Smile ...

Many experienced doggie-people actually move their pups to adult food quite early ... to cut down on protein intake ... so as to slow down excessive growth-rate and avoid the potential problems that can be brought about by too rapid growth ... including "growing pains" ...

Apparently, from newborn to adult ... of all mammals, the dog multiplies the greatest increase ... When I first read that - I found it quite amazing (*thinking of blue whales & elephants*) ... but I guess that's why we have to be careful and try to manage our puppies growth & exercise pattern when young ...

Until the bones of a dog fully mature ... a growing pup should get its exercise through normal play and not from long walks or strenuous exercise routines, especially jumping.

Cheers Smile


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Sep 23, 2003, 7:47 PM

Post #6 of 87 (5020 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

hi,

ohh, so that's the case... :o

but by giving adult food early, won't that means also that the pup will no longer grow?


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 23, 2003, 8:48 PM

Post #7 of 87 (5018 views)
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Re: [hunter] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

   

Hi ...

Laugh ... This was my exactly first worry too ... *laughs*... so can understand your concern.

Well ... we are just speaking of a minimal/moderate reduction in the amount of protein intake and not any drastic or severe reduction in food intake ...

For example: moving from puppy kibble to adult kibble will probably just reduce the protein levels from 30+% ... to 28% ... and you'd probably only make such a switch at about 6months or so ...

Unless you actually starve the pup, causing malnutrition ... just reducing protein intake will merely slow down the rate of growth without preventing the pup from achieving the full potential growth/size that is already imprinted into its genetic code.

The pup will simply grow a little more slowly, with time to build strong dense bone until it reaches maturity ...

Smile


hunter
Ultra ALPHA


Sep 24, 2003, 1:35 AM

Post #8 of 87 (5013 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

ohhhh now i get u.

so the growth rate just slows down and will not be reduced...

was worried a GR will be a size of a cocker at age 3.

thanks a lot for the info. once again learnt something from sifu :>



regards,
hunter


boon
Doggyman


Sep 24, 2003, 8:08 AM

Post #9 of 87 (5007 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

correct me if i'm wrong, i think % of protien in puppy food is about 27% to 28% (normal large breed puppy food). 23% to 25% of protien for large breed adult and i prefer the combination of 25%/15% of protien/fat and 2% of fiber will be good.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 24, 2003, 9:34 AM

Post #10 of 87 (5005 views)
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Re: [boon] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Hello ...

Your percentages are not wrong ... Smile ...

But it does depend on the brand ... for example ... A*F can go up as high as 33% protein/18% fat for large puppy kibble ... and Eag*e goes as low as 23% protein for large puppy kibble.

Would agree with you that 25%protein/15%fat ... would be about right ... Smile ...

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Sep 24, 2003, 9:37 AM)


boon
Doggyman


Sep 24, 2003, 5:06 PM

Post #11 of 87 (4999 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Thanz for the info, but i there are some other kibble like b@ck t0 b@s1cs, their protien level is 23% for all stages of dog life regardless of large or small breed. Do you think this is a good idea ?

I knew that Candidae was using the similar formula for all stages of dog life but after 6 years of doing so, then changed to different formula that formulated for small breed, large breed, puppy, adult and senior.

23% for a nursing bitch is definately not enough in my opinion, what do u think.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 24, 2003, 8:35 PM

Post #12 of 87 (4991 views)
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Re: [boon] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ... Smile

Yes ... some kibble brands do keep protein levels the same for dogs at all stages ... Is that good? ...

Well ... (just thoughts) ... Lets take animals in the wild as a reference point.

Supposition: For feral or wild dogs, wolves etc living in the wild ... once their young are weaned, they don't really get food that is much different from what the adults eat (maybe they get some regurgitated food) but otherwise the composition is much the same ... and the same goes for the older animals too, they still eat the same kind of food and derive nutrients from much the same source.

If the supposition is correct ... then why should our dogs require different "composition" of food at different stages of their lives?

If the supposition is correct - then, kibble that is supposedly "good, healthy & balanced" enough for adult dogs, should also be good enough for dogs of all ages and at all stages. And as our dogs pass through the different stages of their lives, they should merely eat more or less of the kibble ... and that should be the only variation required.

Back to your original question: "... their protein level is 23% for all stages of dog life regardless of large or small breed. Do you think this is a good idea?"

*IF* the kibble is really and truthfully good & complete healthy food, filled with nutrients that our dogs can absorb and use ... then I would say yes ... keeping the same formula ought to be good enough. Then as dog owners, we should only be required to vary the amount of kibble ... to cater for the different stages of our dog's life ... the difference in sizes ... the difference in activity levels ... And any refinement in the kibble thereafter is merely to optimise new knowledge or understanding ...

But my problem is - I am finding it increasingly difficult to believe that kibble is truthfully good complete healthy food in the first place ...

If my recollection is correct - all this variety in kibble is a fairly recent innovation ... And rather recently - everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon ... kibble has gone from premium to super premium, with variations for every conceivable purpose ... what next? ...

And I really wonder:

(a) How much of it is just marketing hype? ... Is there really a difference? ...

(b) How much of it has actually made necessary because the kibble produced was never really good enough ... and now we need special food for the poor quality dogs created by kibble in the first place?

You wrote: "... 23% for a nursing bitch is definately not enough in my opinion, what do u think? ..."

It's really so hard to say - there is just so much variation in the "quality" of kibble ... 23% protein from a good protein source combined with good absorbable fat, may be better than higher percentages of poorer quality elements ...

For pregnant & nursing bitches ... our breeder friends don't seem to rely so much on the so-called special kibble for pregnant or lactating bitches ... instead, they seem to focus on the following:

(a) Ensuring that the bitch is in good health and condition before breeding ... "The gestation period is not a proper time to attempt to rebuild depleted body reserves. Nutritional excesses during the entire gestation period will be channeled to the fetus, and may result in complications at time of whelping. An obese dog will have a much more difficult time at whelping ..."

(b) Ensuring the quality and freshness of the foods they feed ... they give good fresh meats (marbled with some fat), liver and other offal ... carcasses ... fresh fish ... appropriate supplements ... maintaining proper dietary calcium-phosphorus ratio ...

(c) Taking extra care during the first month after whelping when the nutritional needs of the bitch peaks.

Most of them don't rely on kibble as the sole or primary source of nutrients.

Okies ... have rambled on enough ...

Cheers Smile


boon
Doggyman


Sep 24, 2003, 9:11 PM

Post #13 of 87 (4985 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Wah...thanz for sharing with us, let go a little more precise, if take for example, the kibble is B@ck To B@sics, what is your view then.Wink

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 24, 2003, 9:30 PM

Post #14 of 87 (4984 views)
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Re: [boon] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Just had a look at the BtoB site ...

*Waaah* ... very impressive loh ... ultra premium even ...

They are very specific about the sources of their ingredients and that is good ... am sure "interested" parties in US would have counter checked their claims ...

Now I have question ... how much ah - for 15kg pack? ... And where find? ... Smile

Cheers ...


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Sep 24, 2003, 9:31 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Sep 24, 2003, 9:41 PM

Post #15 of 87 (4982 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

I'm now have my Bonney on and another huge sample of kibble name Canine Caviar. She seem to like CC more, may be bored of .

U can get in most of the pet shops n subang/PJ area. Do u think is ok for u to find out the CC kibble and share with me. I personally prefer CC. I like their ingredient and more importantly no corn, no wheat and allergen free. u can check this out @ www.caninecaviar.com

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 24, 2003, 10:51 PM

Post #16 of 87 (4979 views)
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Re: [boon] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ... had a look at CC website ...

I have not tried either BtoB or CC ... and so whatever I write is just from the information provided on their respective sites ... Smile ...

(a) Both kibble obviously belong in the super premium (or higher) range of dog kibble ... and in that sense ... they are both free from the common chemical preservatives that have received so much bad publicity. Both use vitamins as preservatives.

(b) CC uses white/brown rice as their main grain filler while BtoB uses corn. Any advantage? ... Not as far as I know ... both are good fillers - usually giving less problems than wheat or soya ... So unless your dog is specifically allergic to either rice or corn ... there ought to be no or little difference. The fibre content seems similar. BtoB identify their oats as coming from Quaker.

(c) The supplements in both brands also look quite similar to me Smile... (an expert or trained nutritionist would probably tell you the differences) ... both kibble have well rounded vitamin & mineral supplements.

But BtoB might have an advantage because BtoB also provide dried probiotics (useful enzymes/bacteria) to aid the digestive system. (I personally like probiotics)

(b) The biggest difference between the 2 brands appears to be this:

*** CC says its chemical preservative free and has Flaxseed Oil & Fishmeal ... ok that's good ... But BtoB also has Fishmeal, Lecithin, Alfalfa Meal, Fish Oil, Canola Oil which basically serves the same function. And BtoB go one step further - they actually identify the source of their Fishmeal - Herring ...

*** CC's list of ingredients seem similar to most premium dog kibble ...

*** BtoB appears to have one big advantage ... BtoB provides assurance that their meat and other main ingredients are "human-grade" ... and that's an immediate attraction. Not many premium kibble can make such representation. CC too, does not or perhaps cannot make such claim.

From my understanding there is a big difference between even the best industrial grade product and "human-grade" products.

BtoB also claims to be steroid and antiboitic free ... that's another plus.

So overall - I'd go for BtoB ... based on the list of ingredients ... Unless my dog is allergic to corn, having a corn filler would not affect my choice.

Cheers Smile


Riccaval
ALPHA


Sep 24, 2003, 11:05 PM

Post #17 of 87 (4975 views)
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Re: [surchinmy,boon] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting comparison.,SK do you mind doing it with C-nid-e. Like all of us we want to give the best to our doggies.

boon!! kibble rollercoasting again ah?LaughLaugh


boon
Doggyman


Sep 24, 2003, 11:14 PM

Post #18 of 87 (4974 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

I do agree wiht you for the cost per KG between B2B and CC. B2B is cheaper than CC but some of the forum members are on B2B and the feedback i got from them is after feeding B2B, the dog/pup look skinnier than before even the amount consume is more. I personally don have this problem with B2B (may be my monkey eat too much junk). I had friends tried B2B on their labbies, goldies, GSD, JRT, bull mastiff, dogue de bordoeux and etc. Basically all of them gave me the same feedback, from density of fur, skinnier even feed more, fur not as shine as before.

But some others that are on B2B like it very much and their dog just doing well with B2B. Again back to the very first rules of changing/choosing a right diet for your dog, which is no one brand that can suite all dogs not all dogs agree with the complicated ingredients use in today dog food manufacturer.

But one think i can say for sure, they don use BHA/BHT as preservative and this will eventually cause kidney problem and cancer.

Cut & Paste from one of my private mail with the kibble manufacturing specialist. ====================================================================== I found two diets for dogs. They both look like good diets minus the corn. One thing I did find is the second ingredient is Corn. I will do a comparison.

Omega - B2B Omega 6/3 ratio of 7:1 Canine Caviar Omega 6:3 ratio range from 1.9:1 to 3.0:1 pending on the diet. CC offering 3 to 4 times better Omega ratio (benefits skin, coat, immune system)

Metabolized Energy - B2B 441 kc per cup Canine Caviar 399 cal/cup ranging to 554 cal/cup so CC have diet formulas for puppy, adult, working, and maintained

Digestibility - B2B didn't provide overall digestibility but Canine Caviar digestibility 91% on all diets

Packaging - B2B using paper bag and with shipping in a container and 30 days at seas this might be a concern and max shelflife is 9 months expiration Canine Caviar use a foil / poly bag and food is good for 18 months and is not subject to any water damage. So a fresher product! Corn is an allergen or can be (not all dogs are allergic but is considered an allergen because so many are) and is the number one cause of lick sores. Dogs can not digest corn (much like humans and you can see this in your own waste / you can not see it in the dogs waste because it is ground up and blended in the formula), and more so in warmer climates what will happen is the corn coagulates under the skin and makes a bump. The dog itches and bites at it. This interns causes the hair to be removed in that spot and then the dog starts licking it creating the lick sore.

Corn is very inexpensive to purchase and why it is considered a filler. Just so you know the first two ingredients make up aprox 85% of any diet. The first five ingredients make up aprox 95% of diet generally.

As for description on ingredients Corn - Omega 6 is in corn and there is a trace of Omega 3 but nothing for any sort of ratio. Just for an example look and see any company that sells supplements for Omegas ... and you won't find a single one that uses Corn yet they will all advertise Omega 3 with flaxseed or fishmeal and both is superior. For Omega 3 Canine Caviar use fishmeal and flaxseed so they have a animal and a plant for superior digestion. Also corn stating a "King of Carbohydrates" which means broken down very high in sugar and then turns into fat and once again you can see how the food will collect under the skin when you have a fat that can not be digested by some.

==================================================================== This one is mail from CC

We have the highest level of omega 6:3 fatty acid ratio in pet food as far as we know (no one writes there % ours is printed on the bag), we obtain a 91% digestibility without any prebeotics or probeotics (still really new ingredients with no long term studies and just now research is starting to show major strains on the pancreas), single meat protein sorce, and we have diets ranging from 554 kcal/cup down to 399 kcal/cup trying to meat the neads of all dogs. It is still being tested by third party companies that if you are suppose to feed a puppy just more food to get more calories specially as he/she grows throught the first 10 months what happens to the stretched out intestine and stomach when you start cutting that back? ====================================================================

What do u think ? No mean or whatsoever to argue or 'fight' but just one to have some one like you to share and discuss about.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Sep 24, 2003, 11:25 PM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 24, 2003, 11:33 PM

Post #19 of 87 (4970 views)
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Re: [boon] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ya ... Smile...

Very interesting stuff lah - thanks ... gotto take some time and read properly ... Smile

Cheers


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 24, 2003, 11:36 PM

Post #20 of 87 (4968 views)
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Re: [Riccaval] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

*ahyooh* ... what this "C-nid-e" ???

Cheers Smile


boon
Doggyman


Sep 24, 2003, 11:39 PM

Post #21 of 87 (4967 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

no problem....do get back to me on what u think.Wink

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Sep 24, 2003, 11:41 PM

Post #22 of 87 (4966 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Candidae

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 25, 2003, 12:11 AM

Post #23 of 87 (4963 views)
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Re: [boon] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

   

*hmmm* ... Can see the point that the "specialists" ... are making ... the pertinent points (to me) are;

(a) Packing: ... Yes - foil packing does make a difference ... just open a bag of A*F and you can straight away tell the difference ... But if BtoB gets good regular supply then the equation levels out ...

(b) Energy levels: ... *hmmm* ... not too bothered with this ... I am not entirely convinced by the different formulas for different ages even ... (but this is personal view and this factor is not important to me because I only use kibble as a base ... and not as sole food source).

(c) Digestibility: This one I am not sure about ... can be misleading maybe ... just remove fiber and digestibility increases ... so having 91% digestibility does not necessarily mean better food ... could just mean less fiber or less filler ... perhaps the calorie count is better indication ... but dunno ...

(d) Omega ratio: Assuming the "specialist" is reporting accurately ... CC does have better ratio ... a 2:1 ratio is highly recommended ... It could be the insufficient Omega 3 that is causing doggies to lose shine in coat ... but Omega 3 is quite easy to supplement ...

(e) Corn: I would agree lar ... given choice between corn and rice ... I kinda prefer brown rice ... we use brown rice and the doggies seem to take well to it too ...

QUESTION: How come no one mention the better quality meat products in BtoB? ... If BtoB has better protein source ... then isn't it easier to just supplment Omega 3 ... ?

Hey ... maybe you write to BtoB and see what their "specialists" have to say ? ... That will be interesting ... *

Say ... what are the prices for CC & BtoB??? ... See if price can help swing a vote even ... LOL

Cheers ...Smile


Riccaval
ALPHA


Sep 25, 2003, 12:22 AM

Post #24 of 87 (4956 views)
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Re: [boon,surchinmy] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazyits canidae not candidaeLaughLaugh


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 25, 2003, 12:23 AM

Post #25 of 87 (4955 views)
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Re: [boon, Riccaval] Odd Lab behavior - lethargy, non-interest in food, lazy [In reply to] Can't Post

  



Smile Smile Smile Okay ... Canid*e wins ... this one combines the best of CC & BtoB ... So no one can complain ...

Got no corn, wheat or soya ... Uses human grade meats ... the chicken, turkey lamb & rice makes up 95% of the kibble ... got Fish Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Lecithin, Brewers Yeast ...

Everything also got ...

Only thing missing is ... tea tarik and roti canai ... LOL Smile

Question: Cost? ...

Cheers ...

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