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Home: Breed Specific: Utility Group:
Q: What defines 'utility' breed?





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justinsoong
Novice


Aug 30, 2003, 7:22 AM

Post #1 of 56 (3924 views)
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Q: What defines 'utility' breed? Can't Post

My shih tzu, Goochie, just sit around all day and look pretty. Except for policing her front porch, I can't figure out how shih tzus can be classified as 'utility group'. I mean - aren't they more appropriately in 'toy' category?? Tongue
Goochie & Friends


mackay_low
Member

Aug 31, 2003, 10:37 AM

Post #2 of 56 (3915 views)
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Re: [justinsoong] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

If I am not mistaken, the Shih Tzus used to be little guard dogs for temples in Tibet, hence, they are not really a toy dog. There are some shihtzus that are very fierce to strangers, but a toy dog should be friendly to everyone including strangers. I guess that is why they are now classified in Utility.

Mackay


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 1, 2003, 8:27 AM

Post #3 of 56 (3905 views)
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Re: [mackay_low] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps you are thinking of the Lhasa Apso, Tibetian Spaniel or maybe even the Tibetan Terrier ... Smile ... The Apso was supposed to have been used as temple guardians.

Although the Shih Tzu has its roods in Tibet ... the Shih Tzu as known today was (by most accounts) perfected in China as "companion dogs" for royalty ... which is probably as toy as they come ...

And temperament-wise ... Shih Tzus are not expected to be watchful or wary of strangers ...

The AKC Standard describes the Shih Tzu's temperament as follows:

" ... Temperament : As the sole purpose of the Shih Tzu is that of a companion and house pet, it is essential that its temperament be outgoing, happy, affectionate, friendly and trusting towards ALL ..."

The KC Standard describes a Shih Tzu's temperament as "Friendly & Indepedent".

So, we are still left with the question - how come the Shih Tzu is classified as "Utility" ... a puzzler for sure ...

Cheers ...


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Sep 1, 2003, 8:29 AM)


mackay_low
Member

Sep 1, 2003, 11:19 AM

Post #4 of 56 (3901 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

From what I understand, the Shih Tzu is a result of the crossing of Lhasa apso (or tibetan breeds) with some chinese breeds like pekingese/pug, therefore I think the shih tzu is now between the size of Lhasa and a peke and have shorter muzzle. As you previously said that the Lhasa Apso are temple dogs, hence its logical that the shihtzus have guarding instinct and being a little fierce. Of course, not as fierce as a Rottweiler.

Yes, the shih tzu standards describe that its supposed to be friendly and independent. That is what the standard calls for an ideal specimen. I understand Rottweilers are supposed to be good natured, not nervous, aggressive or vicious.... then why are Rottweilers being fierce in all breed shows??? Therefore, I believe there is no perfect dog. So, some Shih Tzus are more fierce than others. Dogs are dogs, how can they be friendly towards all???

The shihtzus are too small and are not really working dogs. On the other hand, they are just not really toy dogs, thats only my personal opinion why shihtzus aren't classified in Toy Group. I think there isn't any definite answer for this.... I would also like to hear more opinions from other people.

Mackay


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 1, 2003, 10:44 PM

Post #5 of 56 (3895 views)
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Re: [mackay_low] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

It might be a good idea not to lose track of the original question, which was: “How come Shih Tzu’s are classified in the “utility” group.”

*** Your answer was: “ … the Shih Tzus used to be little guard dogs for temples in Tibet, hence, they are not really a toy dog. There are some shihtzus that are very fierce to strangers, but a toy dog should be friendly to everyone including strangers. I guess that is why they are now classified in Utility …”

By most accounts, the creation of the Shih Tzu breed is accredited to China (and not Tibet) … The Shih Tzu was not bred to guard Tibetan or Chinese temples … and Shih Tzus are not fierce to strangers. The fierceness you refer would be abhorrent to responsible & serious Shih Tzu breeders.

Perhaps you have been unfortunate to meet specimens from poor or bad breeding.

Thus, their reclassification from toy to utility cannot be for the reasons you suggest.

Useful site: www.bakalo.co.uk/shihtzunewsuk/articles/history.htm

Having sorted out the above, lets move on:

*** You wrote: “… the Shih Tzu is a result of the crossing of Lhasa apso (or tibetan breeds) …hence its logical that the shihtzus have guarding instinct and being a little fierce …”

Most accounts suggest that early Shih Tzu like dogs were brought over from Tibet to China and existed in China as early as the 1600s and the Shih Tzu as we know it today, was already fixed as a breed by the time of Dowager Empress Cixi ((T’zu Hsi) in the 1800s.

350 years of selective breeding would probably have been sufficient to create the distinctive breed & temperament of the Shih Tzu as a companion dog.

*** You also wrote: “ … I understand Rottweilers are supposed to be good natured, not nervous, aggressive or vicious.... then why are Rottweilers being fierce in all breed shows??? …”

Using the Rottweiler as analogy to explain the temperament of a Shih Tzu is giving me difficulties … it's like trying to use a durian to explain the rambutan.

But since you referred to the Rottweiler, we ought to proceed.

First and please … Rotties ARE NOT as you say "... fierce in all breed shows ..."

Some badly bred, poorly trained and/or badly socialised Rotties behave badly at dog shows … The fault lies with the owner & breeders and not the dogs! (the same happens with other breeds too).

But we cannot tar the entire breed because of some bad apples ... or hold the bad behaviour of poor or badly trained/socialised specimens as being synonymous for the entire breed.

The AKA describes the Rottweiler temperament as:

“… The Rottweiler is basically a calm, confident and courageous dog with a self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. A Rottweiler is self-confident and responds quietly and with a wait-and-see attitude to influences in his environment. He has an inherent desire to protect home and family, and is an intelligent dog …”

The words relevant to this discussion would probably be: “… basically ... a calm ... dog ... with self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships … especially suited as … guardian …”

The Shih Tzu and Rottie are totally different types of dogs, bred for totally different purposes. While neither breed is expected to exhibit unstable temperament, aggression or viciousness. We cannot expect the Rottie to behave like the Shih Tzu or vice versa.

Unfortunately, once again, perhaps your experience is limited to badly bred, poorly trained or socialised Rotties.

Rotties are confident and calm … but they are not going to be like your Golden or Labbie … Most breed books will caution that the Rotties have high dominance, a reasonably low tolerance to other dogs and may not be ideal or suitable for novice owners.

The Rottie is dominant by instinct ... that is their nature and breeding. But a well-bred Rottie under the hands of an experience owner (or a novice prepared to study the breed and learn) makes a wonderful and obedient pet, a great watchdog and an great member of the family.

*** Finally you write: “… Therefore, I believe there is no perfect dog. So, some Shih Tzus are more fierce than others. Dogs are dogs, how can they be friendly towards all??? … On the other hand, they are just not really toy dogs …”

For sure there are no perfect dogs. But we are not discussing the issue of “perfect” dogs.

The point is, we surely do not classify dogs or breeds by the exception rather than the rule. Just because some Shih Tzus may be badly bred and “fierce” … cannot be sufficient reason or justification to reclassify the Shih Tzu to utility.

There must be more to the issue of re-classification ...


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Sep 1, 2003, 11:01 PM)


mackay_low
Member

Sep 1, 2003, 11:46 PM

Post #6 of 56 (3888 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for your reply. Well, thats your interpretation. And I enjoy "reading" it. Perhaps, you are luckier for being able to see better specimens than I do.

Thank you.

Mackay


Xana
Dog Kichi


Sep 2, 2003, 10:45 AM

Post #7 of 56 (3879 views)
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Re: [justinsoong] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Hi,
I understand very well that you hasitate why shih-tzus are in utility group at Malaysia. I don't understand it myself. For example in Europe /and in another countries summoned under FCI (Federation Canine International)/ there are shih-tzus in group of "social breeds" - like poodles, bichons, boston terriers, chinese crested dogs etc. Well there are breeds which are good on sofa e.g.Wink¨


In "utility group" are real working dogs like schnauzers, pinschers, swiss dogs and dogs of "dogo" type /great dane, mastins, mastifs etc/
you can see that it is very diferent in FCI Smile

Xana


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 2, 2003, 7:43 PM

Post #8 of 56 (3873 views)
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Re: [Xana] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello ...

Noticed that you have giant schnauzers ... *wow* ... we don't have many over here in Malaysia ... what are they like in temperament and to have at home? ... Are they very different from the little schnauzers? ...

Cheers Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Sep 2, 2003, 7:45 PM)


justinsoong
Novice


Sep 3, 2003, 4:48 AM

Post #9 of 56 (3859 views)
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Re: [Xana] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey OK Thanks for all the info from everybody. Guess what's important is that they are adorable and great companions. Smile
Goochie & Friends


Xana
Dog Kichi


Sep 3, 2003, 11:32 AM

Post #10 of 56 (3853 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,
Giants are perfect breed - very intelligent, bright, fast, shortly said: the best breed for active people who don't like to bored. WinkYou know - giants are that type of dog which "thinks over two corners". So only clever people can deal with them. Sometimes I think they are too much intelligent but to own or breed giant is a big challenge. Cool
Giants are classic utillity dogs - they are very good in police work (obedience, tracking, schutzhund) and also for good for unfolding of drugs. For example the first dog who was able to find dead bodies in Czech Republic was giant schnauzer called "Zack". Giants are not good for guiding of blind men or another handicapped. They are too clever for it - it is boring for them to follow the same methods all their life. They think about them and try to invent their own methods. And it is not good for guide job, you know Tongue
I have giant and miniature too. And our miniatures thinks that they ARE GIANTSCool Because they live with giants and love them.
Well, was it good PR for schnauzers?Sly But I swear it is truth! I have scottish terrier too and I have black russian terrier a few years ago. And thanks them I know that I would NEVER change schnauzers! They are the best breeds for me and I hope that I will ever have at least one black giant and one black mini LaughLaughLaugh

Xana


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 3, 2003, 6:03 PM

Post #11 of 56 (3848 views)
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Re: [Xana] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

   

... Did some reading up on giants ... and yes, they sound like great doggies for active people ... can imagine how intelligent they are ...

Aaah ... Black Russian Terrier ... that's a big dog ... have ever seen one ... they are supposed to be very intelligent dogs too ...

If you have any perhaps you could post some pixs of your doggies ... am sure the forum members would love to see a Black Russian Terrier ... and Giants Schs ...

Many thanks for the info ...

Cheers


Xana
Dog Kichi


Sep 4, 2003, 5:39 AM

Post #12 of 56 (3837 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, I am glad that you like giants! Laugh They are really marvellous. BRTs are good too but they are not the right dogs to apparment I think. They are good to the garden.

Look at some links to giants: www.skansen.com, www.gentlyborn.com, www.rustergiants.com, www.gloris.com, www.vomkossowerland.de

BRTs: http://www.polbox.com/...ndog/Ang/vandoga.htm, http://blackterriers.com/Eng/st03.htm
I¨ll find some pics and take it to photo gallery here. I submitted black mini there only which is not common at Malaysia as I have heart before...

Xana


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 4, 2003, 7:54 AM

Post #13 of 56 (3834 views)
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Re: [Xana] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info ... :)


JolinG
Doggyman


Sep 5, 2003, 9:56 AM

Post #14 of 56 (3822 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

but i tot shit tzu's were breed to attack lions down there TongueBlushTongueSmile

and i think in malaysia...IMHO..that mackay low shit tzu are very good specimens

first impression countsSmile coat n everything fantastic

his got all the pezzahs!....


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 5, 2003, 7:13 PM

Post #15 of 56 (3816 views)
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Re: [JolinG] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

But Shih Tzus are attack dogs ...*yeah*... Tongue ...

Nooo lar ... not criticizing mackay low's doggies ... am sure they are lovely ...

Was just wondering why Shih Tzus are 'utility' ... actually I think we just follow the Kennel Club classifications ... and you know lah the English - they always like to do things their way ...

Cheers ...


mackmack
Doggyman


Sep 6, 2003, 10:29 AM

Post #16 of 56 (3808 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is Bichon Frise falls under Utility Group? (it's cetegorised as non-sporting group in AKC)


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 6, 2003, 4:59 PM

Post #17 of 56 (3804 views)
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Re: [mackmack] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello ... Smile

The Kennel Club England categorises the Bichon as a Toy ...

Cheers


Xana
Dog Kichi


Sep 9, 2003, 3:27 AM

Post #18 of 56 (3777 views)
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Re: [mackmack] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

They are in "social breeds" group under FCI.
Xana


bubbles_fhm
Novice


Sep 10, 2003, 11:23 AM

Post #19 of 56 (3765 views)
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Re: [justinsoong] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, Yes Shih tzu is in the Utility/Non Sporting. If you received all these replies for this question, I would like to ask why the Standard Poodle is in the same group? This dog should be in working or gun dog group. It is a proven retriever and was used as a pack dog to hunt lions much like the Afgan Hound.


JolinG
Doggyman


Sep 10, 2003, 11:04 PM

Post #20 of 56 (3761 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

oh hey now we know there is really a dog breed for hunting lion according to bubbles_fhm

the standard poodle!!!Wink


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 11, 2003, 12:15 AM

Post #21 of 56 (3759 views)
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Re: [JolinG] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

How lar like this ... every breed also want to track lions ... next thing, the RR also end up in Utility ... LOL


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Sep 11, 2003, 12:16 AM)


Xana
Dog Kichi


Sep 11, 2003, 6:31 AM

Post #22 of 56 (3756 views)
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Re: [bubbles_fhm] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, I think that FCI sorts dogs according their recent using. And poodles are no more used as working dogs. Because of it they are (as shih-tzus) sorted to "social breeds". In utility (working) group are dogs who still train obedience, schutzhund, tracking etc - schnauzers, dobermanns, pinschers, Swiss dogs, Cane corso, boxers, great danes etc. etc.


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 11, 2003, 8:52 AM

Post #23 of 56 (3753 views)
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Re: [JolinG] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

... Actually ... was wondering ... how errr ... white poodle disguise itself when hunting lions? ...

Look like big cotton bud ... Smile ... floating on the brown savannah ...


JolinG
Doggyman


Sep 11, 2003, 9:02 AM

Post #24 of 56 (3751 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

ahha yea lar

but standar poodle dont only come in white colour right?......is there brown or black colour standard poodle?..

your RR from hound group mana boleh jadi utility wan.......not short enuff to nip the lions down there without giving itself away.....RR no fluffy brown bulu to cameoflage


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Sep 11, 2003, 9:09 AM

Post #25 of 56 (3749 views)
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Re: [JolinG] Q: What defines 'utility' breed? [In reply to] Can't Post

... the grays, browns, cafe-au-laits and maybe even the apricots would probably do okay in the brown savannah ...

Was only just wondering about the white cotton buds ... they'd kinda stand out from a mile away ... Smile ... then when the lions see ... cotton bud gone case already ...

oh yeah pun ... RR kinda tall to do that ... LOL

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