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obedience and agility training







khengteik
ALPHA


Jul 6, 2009, 8:24 AM

Post #1 of 22 (2888 views)
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obedience and agility training Can't Post

I know this is not really the correct place to post these questions but from the posts that i've been reading in the training section, i'm still curious about a few things regarding obedience and agility.....

1. Does the dog need to undergo obedience classes before going for agility?
2. I've seen that distractions are the main causes of blunders during competitions. But why blame the audience?
3. How does judging for agility is being made? is it all about going through the course the correct sequence in the shortest time? If that is the case, then i do not think that it is fair as different breed has different energy level....
4. I'm not sure if its just me, but why do i always see only same handlers with different dogs that are competing in this competitions? I understand that quite alot of people send their dogs for this kind of training.... Why not many people participate?

Hope someone would be able to clear up these few issues for my understanding...




A dog is a man's most loyal friend.


luv_leehom517
K9 Maniac

Jul 7, 2009, 6:06 AM

Post #2 of 22 (2863 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

ya..there's a lady at mid valley who is unfrenly..im not sitting very near to the ring n im carrying my dog n she was shivering n dun even bark..she diam diam let me carry her n dun move oso..n guess wat..the lady tell me 'dun go so near la' n 'go farer' n dun go near n dun let them see ur dog'..3 times edi..wtf??


khengteik
ALPHA


Jul 7, 2009, 5:00 PM

Post #3 of 22 (2859 views)
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Re: [luv_leehom517] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

which brings me to another point.... why blame others for the dog's incompetence?

however, there maybe some reason behind that.... and i hope that someone would be able to clarify these issues.... although pp.com.my provides training and the pricing is also quite reasonable.... but i would prefer to have all issues clarified before i decide to take my dog out for proper training or just get the training guidebook from the internet and train at home......




A dog is a man's most loyal friend.


chrislimyy
K9 Kaki


Jul 7, 2009, 11:13 PM

Post #4 of 22 (2850 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

at times i would say, let dogs be dogs... i mean, if they really enjoy the training or if it's fun then of course it's good... but if they hate the training, then they won't enjoy it, and when they do not enjoy it, they won't be happy... it's just like children... when they really don't have the talent to study, they won't enjoy studying... but it's just my 2 cents... unless if the dog is trained for certain kinds of work, that will be a different case... but if the purpose of training the dog vigorously to end up showboating, it's just not right... but i do understand that everyone wants to provide the best for their own doggies according to their own interests or understanding... so i am not saying that those who sends their dogs to training are not responsible owners... and i do salute them for spending the time and the money in doing do... :)


khengteik
ALPHA


Jul 7, 2009, 11:29 PM

Post #5 of 22 (2844 views)
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Re: [chrislimyy] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

i agree with you... some dogs are just plain couch potatoes... while some are hyperactive....

There is one thing that i've noticed for a very long time.. from reading and even from watching stuffs on youtube as well as the show from the police K9 during the pp.com dog day...

i've noticed that non working dogs, dogs that are bread to be household pets tend to be very easily distracted... but working dogs do not have so much of a problem... although they also tend to get distracted... working dogs are a very selected and elite breed of dogs where they are specifically bred to do specific tasks... this kind of dogs are not suitable as pets as their only understanding is work... they work not because they are trained to work... but because simply they live to work... to them, working is everything... they get pleasure from working.... unlike pets... they are forced to do work... which is not what the dogs are for....

therefore that is why i'm asking about the training and also the points scoring for the obedience as well as agility competition... if you're putting a beagle with a beagle head on... or a jrt and jrt... then i think it is quite fair... but a jrt and a schnauzer..... i dont see the fairness of it.....

it really ticks me off when i see handlers blaming the general public because their dogs are distracted during the competition... which to me is a laughing joke...

and i noticed that there is one dog in the competition that looks very stressed as well as tired... yet the owner made the dog go thru the competition just the same... (this is just from my observation.. which might not be true at all)




A dog is a man's most loyal friend.


chrislimyy
K9 Kaki


Jul 8, 2009, 3:59 AM

Post #6 of 22 (2832 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

yes... it's true at times the dogs do not enjoy being involved in such things... but what to do... owners or breeders who just want to get the "champion line" tag... but of course there are also those who really enjoy in doing so... i mean both the dog and the owner... but the jrt vs schnauzer thing is really kind of silly... Crazy


luv_leehom517
K9 Maniac

Jul 8, 2009, 4:39 AM

Post #7 of 22 (2830 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

not the handler blaming..bu the organizer..Crazyn yaa..whose dog will enjoy doing all these?unless those hyper one..the owner has been putting the dog repeat n repeat n repeating in the OB ring..the dog look so annoyed..hahaFrown


acsyen
Ultra ALPHA


Jul 8, 2009, 6:27 PM

Post #8 of 22 (2807 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me share my thoughts here as an obedience competition participant. Maybe in future I will train my dog in agility, flyball and heelwork to music too. Sly
  1. Yes the dogs needs to go through obedience before agility, dun trust those trainers that tell you otherwise.
  2. Well maybe the owners should not blame the audience cos with proper training the dog should not be distracted at all.
  3. It depends on which category you are talking about. Yes it's about the least mistakes and the fastest time. Fast doesn't mean you can't make mistakes. Not all breeds are meant for agility though I have seen saint bernards doing agility for fun.
  4. Cos there are just a handful of people who are interested in building the bond with their dogs through dog sports. Many are not willing to spend time and energy on their dogs.


Well if you google some international dog dancing videos with their handlers you will notice that most of them are happily performing and dancing with their owners. That is because the owners train them the right way. I have always believed in positive reinforcement training. Some people use choke chains, electric collars, prong collars and so on. Those methods can make the dog unhappy and not willing to work at times. I guess this is why you say the dogs are not fast like a JRT and a schnauzer. Have you seen my shih tzu cross? She is the fastest dog among all the other dogs that I have. Even a dobermann loses to her. So it all depends on the owner and their training methods.

~Nature's Way: Raw Food for Health ~

~ Pet ID Tags: A MUST For Every Pet! ~



khengteik
ALPHA


Jul 8, 2009, 8:10 PM

Post #9 of 22 (2797 views)
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Re: [chrislimyy] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

well.. thats a sad fact that we all have to accept... alot of breeders are in these competition because the more competition the dogs win, the higher the price for the pup will be (correct me if i'm wrong)

i do believe that there are owners and dogs that actually enjoy going for all this things.... however, i've not really seen many of them participating in the events......




A dog is a man's most loyal friend.


khengteik
ALPHA


Jul 8, 2009, 8:12 PM

Post #10 of 22 (2794 views)
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Re: [luv_leehom517] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

well... from what i see... there was one handler that was blaming the presence of UPM students in the ring.... that is why i say so....




A dog is a man's most loyal friend.


khengteik
ALPHA


Jul 8, 2009, 8:53 PM

Post #11 of 22 (2787 views)
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Re: [acsyen] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info Yen.....

The reason why i'm putting up these questions to be clarified is because i've seen many agility videos in the net.... and they are totally different from that of malaysia... maybe its because of the standard....

I remember the MC was asking everyone not to make noise and also not to walk around..... but thats not the case in agility competitions overseas.. the commentators are always talking and yaping and making jokes... and the crowd is laughing and taking and walking as well... for example this video of a rescued dog doing agility
[link] www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRUN9MdN24Y&feature=related[/link]

anyways, hope to see more non breeders in the ring in the future...




A dog is a man's most loyal friend.


chrislimyy
K9 Kaki


Jul 8, 2009, 9:20 PM

Post #12 of 22 (2785 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

it's in the quality of the training... the concentration of both the owner and the dog... and furthermore... this is malaysia standard...


khengteik
ALPHA


Jul 9, 2009, 1:13 AM

Post #13 of 22 (2773 views)
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Re: [chrislimyy] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

that is true... i think its the standard.... there are a few agility competition that i saw in youtube which will blow out some ppl's brains... the handler is just standing in the middle of the ring and giving instructions to the dog.... that is soooo cool.... i dont think the handler is needed at all in the ring... :p




A dog is a man's most loyal friend.


chrislimyy
K9 Kaki


Jul 9, 2009, 2:25 AM

Post #14 of 22 (2771 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

i once saw a clip showing a rottie and the owner, the rottie superbly and diligently follows the owners every command and gazes straight to the owner all the time... talk about concentration...


luv_leehom517
K9 Maniac

Jul 9, 2009, 6:11 AM

Post #15 of 22 (2764 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

hais..if like tat than ask them juz do it in a closed place la..y do it in a dog show..btw..yen,r u the one who brough a mini rottie?Tongue


pflakes
Novice


Jul 13, 2009, 11:35 PM

Post #16 of 22 (2701 views)
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Re: [luv_leehom517] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

Before going for Agility, some basic Obedience needs to be establish first like heeling by side especially the Recall exercise. Also the handler should ensure that own dog is old enough and if possible to train on grass area as training on cemented area proves to be harmful to the dogs’ delicate paws. Imagine if we run without shoes for a period of time on hot, slippery cemented area. It’s torturing isn’t it.

Dog have sensitive nose and ear and being that, they are distracted with the presence of food, smell and even slightest sound. Unless if the dog is really very well trained like the K9 police dogs of able to ignore and controlling itself. (which I don’t think my pampered pooch will be able to) I also agreed that if the dog is very well trained, it should not be distracted at all. But come to think of it, most of the so called household handlers like us attend dog trainings during weekend and to come to this level where our dogs don’t get distracted, we should consider our dog really really good.. (also if this includes denying food from strangers). With the confined indoor area with lots of smells and sound, dogs that are not used to the indoor environment will find itself stress, restless and barky.



Agility dog sport had becomes a very normal sport in other foreign countries with owners spend time training their dogs every evening after they reached home so that they can participate in competition every weekend. For us the Asian, we still work our butt off and probably spend time on training our dog only during weekend. And certainly we do not have competition every weekend because the dog sport is still not that popular here in Malaysia.

The Agility dog sport supposed to be fun where both dog and the handler work and enjoy the run together. Some dogs really found thrill and excitement from it. And it also depends hugely on the dog whether it have any interest in it. Some dog can do agility and some can’t. It is not because of the breed, it is because of the dog itself. Size does not matter: There is one dog training school which I came across in Google that concentrate and promote agility for tiny dog like chihuahua. Believed that the obstacles need to be set low based on the wither height of the dog. To add on, dogs that are well trained identify obstacles by familiar name, so it wouldnt be a surprise if the handler just stood there and instruct the dogs to go through obstacles by name.

For competition, if your dog run fast but did lots of faults compared to dog that run slow and steady but no faults. It is the dog that run slow and steady with no fault claim to be the winner. It was assess by least fault and with best time. So it doesn’t mean that JRT can win a Schnauzer any time.

Coming to competition, some audiences are ignorant lots. Children dangling their arms to catch or touch a running dog especially the big one like Malinois or audiences carrying their dogs too near the line are totally dangerous. You may never know if the dog big or small in the ring is good temperament or not. Even some dog excel in obedience does not necessary mean that they are friendly to other dogs or other human. Don’t keep the mindset that top dog with high level of Obedience does not nip or bite. We never know if someday the dog snap too. It might not be on the owner but perhaps strangers like you or me. The organizer were just being careful of the audiences’ welfare and to prevent such unfortunate incident (if) to happen. It is always a safety first to both dog and human inclusive the audiences. Even if you want to touch someone’s dog, you will politely ask if it is fine to touch. You wouldn’t want to risk being bitten.

If you notice the layout for agility competition overseas in youtubes, the audiences were sitted far away and not just a few steps from the competition flagging their arms in hope of touching a fur or two or dangling their kids to have a better view into the ring as what we have here. Have the responsibility to keep ourself safe.

But of course, there will still always be a few kiasu participants around who always blame everything anything but not themselves.

As comparable with a JRT, Schnauzer didn’t lose out because it is a working dog too. Schnauzer are used as rat catcher, yard guard (herding cattles) and even guard dog. In the past, it was used as a messenger dog in time of war, helped Red Cross and been a police dog. It is on how the owner want it to be whether to treat it as a working dog with defined work or as a pet dog. That is all about how willingly the owner wants to spend time on training. Dog is definitely not dumb or a showcase if you train it well.


khengteik
ALPHA


Jul 14, 2009, 6:03 PM

Post #17 of 22 (2685 views)
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Re: [pflakes] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

wah wah... such a long explanation... :)

well... what you said is true... especially the part of the audience beint ignorant... but what i'm curious about is the organizing committee.... do they not know this kind of things?? or just plainly because they do not have enough space? I've been involved in organizing big functions where space is an issue... but there are certain aspects that cannot be compromised... its just how the committee arranges the floorplan of the event... from what i see, during the Midvalley thinggie.... there are alot of unused space that can be utilized.... but with that said... maybe there are reasons why they designed the floorplan as it is....

back to the issue of training and competition, i'm sure the organizing committee can work out levels of competition... eg: beginner, novice, and expert class... and also have better rewards for participants... from what i've seen online, owners of dogs that win in the competition gets free supply of dog food for a year.. and even those who does not win get a big bag of dog food.... but here.... the rewards is not that much.. maybe the organizer can come to an understanding with their sponsors to provide more prizes.... as i understand, companies that sponsor these kind of events gets tax rebate...

I'm not sure if it's just me or what... there should be understanding between organizers and potential sponsors.... for example, alot of people like to watch japanese or hong kong or taiwan game shows... and in those game shows, there are countless of expensive and branded products that are up for grabs.... I''m sure that those companies that sponsor in those game show get tax rebate or something in return... if not, who will want to sponsor these kind of game shows?

i think the main subject here is to get more participants to participate in these events... i'm sure that there are alot of people who brings their dogs out for training... regardless if its obedience, agility, etc etc. and in order to get more of these people to participate, something has to be bait to lure them to join...

anyways, thanks for the reply... i'm sure other people apart from myself would benefit from it.... hope more trainers would give their input here for the benefit of all dog owners...




A dog is a man's most loyal friend.


pflakes
Novice


Jul 15, 2009, 11:56 PM

Post #18 of 22 (2656 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

Last year space was wider where the school able to place obstacles and dogs competing from a safe distance away from the itchy hands. This year, looks like they are utilizing the space. Hopefully they have bigger space next year.

There are few levels of competition i.e Basic Jumper, Jumper with Weave, Novice and Open and this were all open to public. In fact, it is most recommended for beginner to join Basic Jumper since all were mainly jumps and dog is allowed to run on leash with treats and toys. Other levels required dog running off leash without collar and treat / toy. If the dog able to concentrate on you without straying away, I think this are the best levels to try for.

This is Malaysia so to speak, so getting one year food supply for the winner is out of the question. It is 'possible' but it won’t be for now. The dog food labels overseas were competitively strong and getting a winner as their spokesperson is possible. Not to mention providing for a long term food supply for a winner is way too little compared to the profits the dog food company is making..

It is not an easy task on seeking donations, sponsorship and alike. The sponsors can’t really claim for tax exemption for privately run event unless these donations are to specified organizations or sponsorship to government bodies, libraries or hospitals for the good cause of benefiting the ‘public’ like us.

It is difficult to compared competition between humans and dogs in term of prize especially the one that popularly aired in TV. The organizer has to make the overall look attractive with expensive or branded things to attract more participants. TV station, the brand sponsors or even the winner themselves all are raking in profits and popularity. And sponsors taking the opportunities to advertise and promote products/ services through the TV channel FOC. It is even cheaper than to book a slot on TV since its cost a bomb depending on the air time. It was a win win to all.

Compared to dog event, the dog doesn’t get such attention let alone expensive prize. It comes out in TV for that flat 15 sec in Berita, pet magazines and appearing in one page or two or quarter in the local newspapers. We can’t compare between humans and dog events because both are different in nature.

I would personally agree too if more company coming up to sponsor on prizes. It is another way to reach out to the market and we as the owners are able to try the product. Anyway no matter how good or lousy the prizes are, there will still be participants because these are the one who are passionate lot about their dogs and some were there to perform for recognition and to have fun.




(This post was edited by pflakes on Jul 16, 2009, 12:00 AM)


khengteik
ALPHA


Jul 16, 2009, 1:07 AM

Post #19 of 22 (2649 views)
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Re: [pflakes] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

yes... bigger ring and more space is definitely the best... and i hope handlers will stop pointing the finger at audience for every single mistakes or distracting the dogs as well as the spectators be more careful as well as be more understanding. but as a precaution... i think the best is to have a double layered ring where there is a barrier to separate the spectators from the actual ring..

I do not mean that prizes here must be the same as US/UK... i do understand that margin for dog food here in Malaysia is quite low.... just at least a better reward for the participants....

as for tax exemptions... i remember i saw in the form that exhibitions are also in the list... but i do not remember if sponsoring a competition is in the list or not... will need the organizing committee to do the research.

hopefully the media will help to promote these kind of events in the near future.....




A dog is a man's most loyal friend.


chrislimyy
K9 Kaki


Jul 22, 2009, 11:03 PM

Post #20 of 22 (2545 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

there's a yorkie for adoption in the adoption thread... posted by melmel... 4 months old male currently under medication... dumped by the breeder owner...


acsyen
Ultra ALPHA


Jul 23, 2009, 10:08 PM

Post #21 of 22 (2525 views)
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Re: [khengteik] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
that is true... i think its the standard.... there are a few agility competition that i saw in youtube which will blow out some ppl's brains... the handler is just standing in the middle of the ring and giving instructions to the dog.... that is soooo cool.... i dont think the handler is needed at all in the ring... :p





I want this video. Send me.. The one handler no run wan..

~Nature's Way: Raw Food for Health ~

~ Pet ID Tags: A MUST For Every Pet! ~



khengteik
ALPHA


Jul 23, 2009, 10:18 PM

Post #22 of 22 (2522 views)
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Re: [acsyen] obedience and agility training [In reply to] Can't Post

not that the handler no run ler.... but the handler never run the full course... just at shout commands oni.... i didnt keep the links... but can search in youtube.... very very alot... :p

i think i search for "Dog agility competition"




A dog is a man's most loyal friend.

(This post was edited by khengteik on Jul 23, 2009, 10:19 PM)

 
 




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