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Home: Dog Sports, Schutzhund, Protection, Tracking,.....: Schutzhund & Protection Dogs:
Schutzhund Advise





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Polluxx
Enthusiast


Aug 10, 2006, 9:35 AM

Post #26 of 39 (6017 views)
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Re: [Michaelw1979] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Michael,

Nice to know U r interested in the development of ScH in Msia. Smile Just to give U a head up on the local scene, interest in ScH in msia is still in the infancy stage unlike in USA. Most of the folks here who r interest with ScH is either into working GSD or malinois, 2ndly they r only very-very few ppl in Msia who has the ability & the know- how to train a dog up to Sch 1 level let alone ScH 3 {as far as I know, one of them is in this thread}. As U put it yourself, it takes a lot of passion & love to be involve in this sport , but over here you will hear tonne of excuses, all I can say is that locally there is no lack of quality dogs (GSD & mali & maybe even rott) it is just matter of passion, love and maybe discipline. So I gotta takes my hat off to the participants (including those in the agility) for their efforts & sacrifice. Not forgetting the hard work put in by both helpers & the judge as well as the organiser. Great Job !!


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Are both Don and Zeno dogs titled dogs?



Well I m not sure abt Zeno, but Don is titled to ScH 5 , so U'll go figure !!! .... Tongue !!.


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I've looked at the entry form for the trials its very unfair in a way because what if a person who has a SchH III titled dog compete is a SchH I trial? Isn't it unfair for the younger dogs or untitled dogs? There is also no requirements for BH for the SchH I trials? Isn't a BH compulsary before taking the SchH I trials? SchH I trials consist of 3 stages...how come there is only 2 ? where is the tracking? How can anyone claim a SchH I champ when it only involves 2 stages..how come the points are not display? In order to pass SchH I trial the dog needs a minimum of 70 points in all 3 stages of SchH....i don't mean to be rude or offend anyone...just because Don or Zeno happens to be the best participants do they even meets the requirements to pass SchH I trials? I don't want to start a big argument here .. but i'm just very curious...SchH no doubt means obedience and protection..but the trials also involve tracking..how can it even be called a SchH trials when it clearly states is the website the SchH involves 3 stages tracking, obedience and protection and they only do obedience and protection?...someone please enlighten me...i did not see pictures of all the whole obdience trial..i saw a lot of bitework and dumbell retreive...no sit or down in motion? left turn right turn..about turn?


Unfair to the ScH2 or ScH3 dogs U said, well u put it best in ur earlier post,

"But from my experience with people here, the assumption is that "I pay so much money (thousands of dollar) for a puppy from extremely famous bloodline, parents or genetic, hence its in their blood or gene to be able to perform to excellence." ,

Most of them who got the titled dogs (or should I say dam-in-whelp) r so NOT into training, so U tell me, how do U expect the dog to run the SCH1 blind or even do a routine Bark & Hold , to do a proper retrieve or even a sendaway ? ? Pray tell me, do U still wanna add TRACKING to the event ? ? ? Of course we know ScH involves 3 phases of exercise, but this being the 1st MKA sanctioned trial , as Amanda puts it if the trial were to be any stricter maybe U will see only 1-2 participants, then what is the point of organizing an empty trial. Therefore like I said earlier, hats off to all the participants (incl Agility).

BTW , of course there were the usual "sit & down in motion, & left turn - right turn..about turn" , what do U think they were doing ? running around in a dog park ...... , and in case U have any doubts, both Zeno & Don did an excellence job to warrant the prize they received, this is unlike some midnight trials like where some of the Canto progenies get their title with flying colours.






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Amanda85
Doggyman


Aug 10, 2006, 6:31 PM

Post #27 of 39 (5998 views)
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Re: [jasen] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

basically all dogs event being held in m'sia, i'll definately be there....unless is too far away from KL

i dun own a working dog actually....but i do enjoy to watch those SchH dogs.....

i love d most is their obedience part....their response is superb compare to normal Obedience trial dogs..

currently juz owning a black mongrel n still learning to be a good handler....

mayb after i had successfully train my this lil mongrel....then onli will proceed to a more serious breed in future....

Pacco de Mongrel
~ Come and join us for a doggie jungle trekking @ Bukit Gasing every Saturday morning ~


(This post was edited by Amanda85 on Aug 10, 2006, 6:31 PM)


Amanda85
Doggyman


Aug 10, 2006, 6:41 PM

Post #28 of 39 (5995 views)
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Re: [Michaelw1979] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

mind to tell u tat, if i've not mistaken there is only 5 or 6 dogs taking part in that SchH trial....i think u can understand d situation here in m'sia....

this goes d same to agility trial....only 2 maxi dog joined....so d organizer couldn't award both 1st n 2nd placing, rite? so they juz gv out d 1st prize onli....

actually there is also an agility trial for novice level.....but then d organizer can actually predict, d same participant who win during d earlier round will win again in d novice level.....so they juz cancel it off....

so as a whole, v definately need more participant to get involve in order to succeed....

n an unfortunately case is, i heard that ownes n dogs from other dog club refuse to take part in d trial organize by puppy.com....so tis definately a sad case....

Pacco de Mongrel
~ Come and join us for a doggie jungle trekking @ Bukit Gasing every Saturday morning ~


Michaelw1979
Novice


Aug 10, 2006, 8:34 PM

Post #29 of 39 (5992 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

Poluxx,

Such sarcasm...i hope..SchH 5???? Anyway..before i proceed any further...i have no complains about participants or organizer...Kudos to the participants for showing the passion for the sport and brave the crowd and heat ..same goes for the organizers too..

Basically i'm more curious than ever but from the responds i received it confirms that the SchH trials are not trials but merely and obedience and protection show...that's how i would put it...there was no SchH points system but just 1st and 2nd place for obedience and protection score...

As far as sit & down in motion question...hey i don't know what is cover what is not...can't blame me..i wasn't there...just need some clarification...who knows...from what Poluxx is saying sounds like running around in the dog park to me...there was no SchH points system..points were not displayed or posted so who really knows if its a midnight trials or not..who knows...maybe to some it might look like some midnight trials...

Amanda,

I think you provided me with enough information regarding the obedience and protection trials that was held M'sia. Thank you very much for the time and effort and response.

One question ... any idea why other dog club refuse to take part in the trial organized by puppy.com??


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Aug 10, 2006, 9:20 PM

Post #30 of 39 (5979 views)
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Re: [Michaelw1979] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Michael,

Well the sarcasm (ScH 5) was not aimed at U, my humble apologies for any misunderstanding. !! The point I was trying to raise was if those ScH2 or 3 titled fella can't even do proper ScH1 Obed & Protection work, relatively speaking then I have to say Don & Zeno should be titled as ScH5 , won't U agree ? ?

In order not to create further doubts or confusiond in your mind, I liked to put on record there was definitely point scoring system in placed during the trial which was read out by our judge right after their individual routine including his critique as well. As for midnight trial I can safely say that it ain't happening over here yet for sure . . . unless of course those owner/handler of Canto's progenies start to get curious . . then who knows !!

Regards






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


jasen
Novice

Aug 10, 2006, 11:12 PM

Post #31 of 39 (5967 views)
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Re: [Amanda85] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Amanda,
How modest. On the contrary, mongrels could be pretty good in work.
Have you read WORKING DOGS by Elliot Humphrey & Lucien Warner? This is what got a lot more people interested in GSDs for work, other than herding work. In any case, SchH is one of many forms of testing GSDs for work, although many people think a dog is pretty useless if it isn't titled in SchH.
I've seen your videos and it clearly shows an understanding. Further you have participated in agility with Pacco, so there you go.
How did you get started on dogs?


Amanda85
Doggyman


Aug 10, 2006, 11:35 PM

Post #32 of 39 (5964 views)
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Re: [Michaelw1979] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

i think u could actually think of a reason why this happen....

they r rivals....haha....

so mayb they dun fancy to support other ppl work on organizing sumthing that their own club yet to hv....

Pacco de Mongrel
~ Come and join us for a doggie jungle trekking @ Bukit Gasing every Saturday morning ~


Amanda85
Doggyman


Aug 10, 2006, 11:45 PM

Post #33 of 39 (5961 views)
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Re: [jasen] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

i get seriously interesting wit dogs onli when 3 years ago i happen to pick up a stray.....

n then later when she reach adult age, then onli i realize such thing as 'training a dog'..... so i enrol for classes n work hard on her to show my family that my mongrel can be more obedient n talented than my cousin's spaniel.... coz i really couldn't stand my family attitude that they onli pamper d pedigree.....

n from then onwards, getting involve in dogs n joining all those activities had been my lifestyle....

but unfortunately i 1st precious mongrel got lost last year....n currently i'm having a 2nd dog.....

this black fella is more hyperactive..... she had a weird ability that i've never seen b4 in other dogs....

she will do a horizontal leap when she's excited....

actually when i lost my 1st dog, my dad said that he'll buy a GSD, in order to comfort me.....but i'm afraid that d GSD will waste his talent in my hand.....

Pacco de Mongrel
~ Come and join us for a doggie jungle trekking @ Bukit Gasing every Saturday morning ~


(This post was edited by Amanda85 on Aug 11, 2006, 12:02 AM)


Ludoc
Novice


Aug 11, 2006, 9:38 PM

Post #34 of 39 (5941 views)
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Re: [Michaelw1979] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

I happen to be the organizer of the schutzhund event held last month in Ipoh. I agree the world Trial is not appropriate in that there was no award of Schutzhund titles. It was more of a SchutzhundA competition, as a first step towards eventual introduction of sanctioned Trials in Malaysia. It was difficult enough to get people to come and take part in this event. We (the Schutzhund Advisory Committee- please refer to MKA website for details) decided to introduce a Pre-Novice class as a beginner's class to encourage more participation. Even then only4 dogs took part. All those guys who talked a lot on the forum about Schutzhund training etc were no where to be seen in any of these two recent events! As to fairness of the competition: there are many who have bought Sch3 titled dogs but have not trained or bonded with their dog and dared not even take part in even the SchA competition. It was apparent: a Sch3 dog entered only in Novice Protection and did poorly compared a non-titled dog trained locally. The point to note is: talk (or more appropriately, key-strokes)is/are cheap, the real test is in participating, be it Pre-Novice or SchA. The important thing is to take the first step. As I have said, my dream is to one day host a regional Schutzhund trial in Iskandar Polo Club Ipoh, an ideal place for such an event as all those who were there can attest to!


Amanda85
Doggyman


Aug 12, 2006, 2:26 AM

Post #35 of 39 (5934 views)
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Re: [Ludoc] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

did u actually mentioned that d titled dogs did poorer than those non-titled one??!

but in order to get titled, they must hv already achieved it during other trials.....so how can they perform so badly?

where did they get those titles from?

Pacco de Mongrel
~ Come and join us for a doggie jungle trekking @ Bukit Gasing every Saturday morning ~


Michaelw1979
Novice


Aug 12, 2006, 5:30 AM

Post #36 of 39 (5925 views)
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Re: [Amanda85] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

Amanda,

SchH 3 titled dogs can be bought...some people bought already titled dogs....some people just don't bond with the dogs...anything can be the reason...there can be tonnes of reason.....





Ludoc,

Kudos to you for being one of the organizer of the two Schutzhund event in M'sia. It is very disheartening to see such low participation at those events where there clearly seems to be a lot of so-called Schutzhund enthusiasts here in the forum. I guess you are right about one thing..talk is cheap....Anyway, Amanda mention something about there are clubs in M'sia who refused to participate because its an MKA or because of rivalry....maybe that's why the participation are so low...ever thought about a truce for the sake of the dogs and the well-being of the sport. I mean if rivalry does exist, then my condolences to this sport in M'sia as the Schutzhund Sport is dead before it get's to live. Where is the Sportsmantship? Schutzhund is a sport...a sport that is still very much at an infancy level in M'sia. If there are clubs or organization that refused to co-operate to promote the sport due to personal reasons or clubs rivalry, i believe that its absolutely immature and should even happen. So when is the next event going to be held..hopefully all the so called enthusiasts in the forum or from other club will participate in the spirit of promoting the sport in M'sia. Good luck and best wishes to you and the organizers. Keep up the good work. The Sport of Schutzhund DO NOT NEED PEOPLE WITH A LOT OF TALK AND NO ACTION.


Ludoc
Novice


Aug 13, 2006, 8:12 AM

Post #37 of 39 (5908 views)
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Re: [Amanda85] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't blame the dogs. The owner/handler were at fault for not bonding and keep up the training of these foreign-titled dogs. It is like giving a finely tuned F1 car to a P-licence driver! You can read about Don and Zeno on MKA website. There were a total of 8 dogs in the last event in Ipoh and it was heartening to see that 6 out of these 8 were not titled but locally trained. The IPO3 dog eventually took the cup, but the other Sch3 dog failed to impress. Not the dog's fault I must say again, rather the handler's. I'm sure the dog knew what to do. He just had no respect for the handler and was totally out of control! It was quite hilarious really! It was great fun, as it should be.
There really was no 'rivalry' at the ground (?grass root) level. Just business rivalry between owners/committee members of the the two dog clubs/Association. Before the KL event, my postings about the up-coming event were deleted repeatedly. On the day of the Ipoh event, the President of the parent association was in town for another function but he did not even bother to drop in to say Hi! although invited. FYI, the event was privately sponsored and free mileage was given to the reluctant parent organization! That's the politics of things which I'm sure also happen elsewhere. Nevertheless, we will go on with the show and now that interests have been ignited, I hope there will be more participants next year! I always maintain that studying the lineage and pedigrees of dogs (DDR included) is a good academic exercise and hobby, but the ultimate proof of one's knowledge of working dogs is in parading your dog in a Schutzhund event! Otherwise it's just empty talk and sales pitch.
Schutzhund is not an easy sport: it takes money, time and interest. The greatest satisfaction I find is in training a young dog and bringing up puppies the way they should be brought up. I have learned a lot from my first Sch3 dog Cash as well as from Michael Lee in Padang Besar and there's still lots to learn. Michael Lee is a do-er, not talker and he gives sensible and sound advice. He has spend millions learning about the sport and he is willing to share his knowledge for those humble enough to seek enlightenment!
I highly recommend this book by Sheila Booth: Schutzhund Obedience Training in Drive with Gottfried Dildei, a step--by-step training manual, suitable for any dog with the right drive, even mongrels!


beethovan
Novice

Aug 17, 2006, 10:57 PM

Post #38 of 39 (5864 views)
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Re: [Ludoc] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

May I know the book "SCHUTZHUND OBEDIENCE: TRAINING IN DRIVE" can be found from which local book store?

Tqs.


boon
Doggyman


Aug 18, 2006, 3:58 AM

Post #39 of 39 (5850 views)
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Re: [beethovan] Schutzhund Advise [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Yo can get it here...not sure if you can get it locally. http://www.dogwise.com/...etails.cfm?ID=DGT151

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

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