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BAD DOG!!







sallychuah
Canine Addict

Nov 18, 2004, 10:18 AM

Post #1 of 18 (2804 views)
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BAD DOG!! Can't Post

Hi everyone,

I found this dog from street. We (me N my bf) adopted him for about 1 month, dunno what breed. Kinda big size to me. He is young, very active, playful, energetic, always hungry Laugh, and he even try to bite us.

I'm the one who usually carry him, give him massage, shower him, play with him, and feed him but somehow he tried to bite me when he was trying to eat my food from table, I scold him then when I tried to carry him outside to the porch he growled, turned over try to taste my hand (bite me). Biting matters has not been happened once but 3 to 4 times within a month.

I dunno why but he seems like someone hurt him b4 coz he got a injured leg behind. Is he maybe trying to protect himself or he is afraid of something? Thought of leaving him at the shelters but I know that wasn't right and not fair for him if we just give up so soon.


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 18, 2004, 7:50 PM

Post #2 of 18 (2795 views)
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Re: [sallychuah] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Sally ...

You and your boyfriend have done a very kind deed ... Smile

You do not say hold old you dog is and I will assume by "very young" - you mean that your dog is still a pup ...

Ok ... the first you MUST realise (and accept) that a dog from the street will probably have a very different temperament from normal "pet or home reared" dog ... To survive on the streets, your dog will have had to protect itself ... and will have developed very strong protection instincts ... otherwise he would not have survive on the streets ... And as you posted - your dog has already been injured before ...

That your dog has so far only tried to bite you is a very good sign ... Believe me, if he really wanted to bite you - he would have done so already - and you would not have been fast enough to avoid being bitten ...

That he is only growling and threatening to bite - is a very good sign (for a rescue) - because it shows that he is already building a bond with you ... and already showing some respect for you ...

From what you post - this issue of growling or biting only happens when food is involved. This is also normal for rescue dogs - who spend most of their time starving.

Once you understand how a stray has to live ... it becomes easier to understand why they do what they do ... Smile

Suggestions:

Because your dog is still a pup - you can still easily train him to become a good pet with good habits ... and how you train him becomes VERY important.

(A) FIRST STEP: Please take the dog to the vet and have his leg examined ... make sure that he is not in pain ... Pain can cause a dog to growl and bite.

(B) SECOND STEP: Remove circumstances of aggravation

For the time being - just remove the situation when growling or threatening to bite occurs ... Which means, when you sit down for dinner ... leash your dog somewhere he cannot see you or the dinner table.

Keep it this way until you are able to establish a strong leadership bond with your dog ... through the steps below.

(B) THIRD STEP: Teach & train

The next thing to do is to teach your dog what behaviour is acceptable and what behaviour is NOT acceptable ...

Training your dog will (i) build & strengthen your bond with the dog ... (ii) Establish you as the "leader" and the dog as "follower" - THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT when dealing with strays ... (iii) To enable you to earn your dog's TRUST ... THIS IS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT.

Usually with stray/rescue dogs - praise & treating methods are most successful. Do not attempt to use any physical or corporal punishment training methods as that will only aggravate its protection instincts ....

Start with teaching the commands ... SIT ... WAIT ... NO ... The process of training bonds the dog to you ... establishes your leader status ... and then you can use the commands to help you communicate with your dog ...

It is too lengthy to go through all the training procedures here ...

You can:

(a) Buy a good training manual from any bookshop ... Check this for suggestions ... www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A383ABZY40JIYO/002-5011404-0101632 ...

(b) Use the Search Function above and the index to find the appropriate threads. Look for threads that give advice on ... (i) how to assert good & responsible leadership over the dog ... (ii) how to curb & reduce food possession ... (ii) how to reprimand with voice commands ...



Please do not give your dog up ...

To give him a chance - you must teach him what you want and expect of him ... You have to teach him what is required to live in a home ... as opposed to living on the streets ...

If there is one thing we have realised through rescuing strays - is that they are intelligent ... they are strong ... and they are really & incredibly loyal.

All the best


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Nov 18, 2004, 7:53 PM)


sallychuah
Canine Addict

Nov 19, 2004, 1:25 AM

Post #3 of 18 (2765 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi surchinmy,

Thank u very much for ur advise here, I appreciated. Actually, he's a very quick learner, he learned to 'sit' within few hours time, but he's ignore with the 'NO'. Ya, he's still a puppy, he's about 1 yr old. As he is young and active he always wanted to play with my other dog non-stop so that makes my MS angry but surprisingly he is afraid of my MS which is smaller than him. But I always keep on eye of them.



Don't worry I won't give up on him, I'll take good care of him as long as I can or he doesn't run away from us. (he ran out from the house b4 but he came back to us.)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 19, 2004, 8:43 AM

Post #4 of 18 (2747 views)
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Re: [sallychuah] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Aaaah ... one year old ... the not a pup any longer but a young fully grown dog ... Most rescue/mix breeds are fully grown by about 10 to 12 months ...

Okay ... just remember that rescue dogs often require a little more attention in terms of training - to help them overcome issues of food and territorial possession ...

Do teach him the command NO ... it's a very important & useful command for dogs to learn ... Use the Search Function and search posts with the word ... "NO" ... The way to teach "no" has previously been discussed.

Once a rescue bonds with you ... they are very very loyal.

All the best


May
Old Hand


Nov 19, 2004, 8:30 PM

Post #5 of 18 (2734 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchinmy,

You have provided a very good explanation on how to deal with a rescue dog. I've adopted a local dog when he was 3 weeks old. Eventhough he was brought up in a home environment, he did developed a stray dog behaviour i.e. very strong protection instincts. Probably he inherited his temperament from his Dad which is a stray dog.

He growl whenever we try to touch his food bowl while he's eating and he did snapped at me once when I try to remove his bowl. He's feed twice a day and sometimes we did hand-feed him too but the situation never improved. However, I'm surprise he did let our other dog to eat his food from his bowl and never attempted to protect his food. Besides, he's also very independent, smart and alert. Most dogs are afraid of loud noise i.e. thunder, fireworks but not him. He knows the command "sit", "stay", "heel", "hand" but I guess he always wanted to challenge us thus barking at us when we commanded him to do something.

The situation got worse when we adopted a female dog. Eventhough he's fully toilet trained, he'll pee and poo everywhere just to get our attention. He's 9 months old, feed twice a day but he'll poo 3-4 times a day especially when we ignore his barking or walking the other dog. I've try walking him first before walking the other dog but he'll still bark non-stop. He was neutered when he was 7 months old and we thought his attitute will improved but it remains the same. Wonder how I can improve the situation?


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 19, 2004, 9:55 PM

Post #6 of 18 (2724 views)
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Re: [May] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Issue A: "... He growl whenever we try to touch his food bowl while he's eating and he did snapped at me once when I try to remove his bowl. He's feed twice a day and sometimes we did hand-feed him too but the situation never improved. However, I'm surprise he did let our other dog to eat his food from his bowl and never attempted to protect his food. Besides, he's also very independent, smart and alert. Most dogs are afraid of loud noise i.e. thunder, fireworks but not him. He knows the command "sit", "stay", "heel", "hand" but I guess he always wanted to challenge us thus barking at us when we commanded him to do something ..."

Issue B: ".... The situation got worse when we adopted a female dog. Eventhough he's fully toilet trained, he'll pee and poo everywhere just to get our attention. He's 9 months old, feed twice a day but he'll poo 3-4 times a day especially when we ignore his barking or walking the other dog. I've try walking him first before walking the other dog but he'll still bark non-stop. He was neutered when he was 7 months old and we thought his attitute will improved but it remains the same ..."

You dog has strong protective/possession instincts ... These instincts will show themselves with food, toys, other dogs and even sometimes other people ... and you have basically 2 issues that overlap ... and you will probably have to work on both simultaneously ...

I suspect that you will need to address the issues at the same time ... and improvement in Issue A will also improve Issue B



The first step is to arm yourself with enough information and knowledge about having a multiple dog household ... There are many books available that help with this ... Try checking these out:

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0793830885/qid=1100839814/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_10/104-5877680-2223923?v=glance&s=books

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1891767062/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/104-5877680-2223923?v=glance&s=books&st=*

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/189176702X/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/104-5877680-2223923?v=glance&s=books&st=*

Alternatively ... many dog training books have one chapter on dog heirachy & reaction to other dogs within the pack ...


ISSUE A: Food Possession

There are many various methods to teach & recondition food possessiveness ...

Getting a handle on your dog's food possessiveness is VERY IMPORTANT ... Once you can get a dog to recognise that YOU can handle its food - a whole host of other potential issues/difficulties/problems ALSO get sorted out ... Because, if a dog allows you to handle its food - then that shows that the dog recognises you as its leader and almost immediately ... issues of dominance & heirachy are also resolved or at least reduced substantially ...

The basic method to recondition food possession will involve the following steps:

(i) You must first teach the command ... sit & wait ... Also remember the very process of training is establishing responsible leadership - regular training sessions almost always helps in a general and effective sense!

(ii) Make the dog sit & wait ... Put the food bowl down ... And you must teach the dog that it CANNOT eat the food until you give release command ... "OK" ... This part of training will require use of collar & leash.

Train the sit, wait & release ... with the command "NO".

(iii) Once you are sure your dog has learned the sit & stay well and only eats on release - you must REINFORCE this until your dog will do it 99 times out of 100 ...

Then you will have to progressively ... teach the dog to let you handle its food ... Everytime the dog growls ... the command NO is given and the food taken immediately AWAY! ...

Once everything has calmed down - you offer the food - and repeat all over ... If the dog has to go hungry - then so be it.

I know you mentioned that you have tried this before ... BUT you need to start AGAIN ... using correct teaching methods ...

As previously mentioned - stray/rescues - are often very intelligent and strong-willed ... so you must be FAIR but VERY FIRM ... when you give command - expect the command to be obeyed EVERYTIME ... Your dog will push you, but you must remain firm and consistent ... CONSISTENCY is the key ...

Dogs find it easy to understand 'yes' and 'no' - it's when owners introduce the 'maybe' & 'sometimes', that causes confusion!

Do remember ... reconditioning a dog can take weeks and months - but it must be done (if you wish a peaceful household) ... and you must do it very gradually and slowly ... Reconditioning is unlike normal training ... in reconditioning you are teaching a dog to OVERCOME an established habit to replace it with a new condition - this is always slow patient work!

And there are many variations to the basic techniques - it is not possible to set out all the various methods for reconditioning in this post ... and some methods will work better for some dogs ... you will need to experiment ...

Get a good dog training manual ... Suggest you check these out:

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1888047054/ref=pd_sim_b_4/104-5877680-2223923?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A383ABZY40JIYO/ref=cm_cr_auth/104-5877680-2223923?%5Fencoding=UTF8

As a start - to understand reconditioning - check this thread ... www.puppy.com.my/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=108691;search_string=reconditioning;#108691


ISSUE B: People Possession

To effectively deal with this issue ... you need to learn and understand how dogs see themselves, other dogs & people within a household with more than one dog ...

There is more to this than just the usual being alpha or being assertive etc ... the entire relationship between dogs & people and other dogs can be very intense and complicated ...

Once again ... we go back to carrying out basic training to establish a relationship of responsible leadership.

What is also important is (a) deciding which dog is higher in ranking (b) and then you must handle the dogs according to the order of that ranking ... And to do this - you have to let the dogs together and let them sort it out themselves ... you need to recognise the ranking they have established ...

For example: If the male dog is higher in ranking than the female dog - then you must always treat the male dog first, walk the male dog first etc ... and this must be consistent with all matters (and not just who gets to go on walks first)

... If you don't keep the order, then complications can arise.

The fact that your male dog allows the female to eat from its bowl, is significant - your male dog probably has no issue with the female dog (and that they have probably already sorted out their positions vis-a-vis one another) - and your male dog only has issue in its relationship with you and/or other humans in the household ...

If your female is an adult, then I suspect that given the opportunity (when you let the dogs together) - your female may actually help sort out the situation for you. The adult female dog may teach the young male dog how to behave.


So ... overall ... get as much information & knowledge as possible.

(a) Commence basic training with both dogs.

(b) Sort out food possession with male dog.

(c) Allow the dogs to interact one with the other to sort out their positions within the household - Allow the dogs to settle issues between themselves ... if they growl at each other in the beginning - its okay ... If you are not sure about this, get experienced doggie people to give you a hand.

Once they have settled issues - then you handle the dogs accordingly.

Always be fair but firm and consistent with both dogs.

Cheers



(This post was edited by surchinmy on Nov 19, 2004, 10:19 PM)


May
Old Hand


Nov 19, 2004, 10:39 PM

Post #7 of 18 (2715 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi...

Thanks for the details and lengthy explanation. Guess I have to start training him all over again.

I din let both the male and female (adult) together as the male is very playful and always bite the female's ears (sometimes it bleeds) and the female will play bite with the male until his body is wet with saliva. The male also likes to hump the female and this make her angry and chase him. So to avoid any untowards incident from happening, I separate both of them.


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 19, 2004, 10:51 PM

Post #8 of 18 (2712 views)
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Re: [May] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah ... suspected that you kept the dogs apart ...

But I think letting them together more often may solve many of your difficulties ... while keeping them apart will make it more difficult overall.

Don't worry so much about the ear biting etc ... the female adult will know how to take care of herself ... If you let them together - the female will probably teach the younger dog how to behave ... and dogs can do it much better than we can ...

When dogs need to resolve issues with each other ... there will be plenty of growling and snarling - but most often it is more noise than anything else (and no dog gets hurt) ... but during that process - they settle issues and then settle down ... And life becomes easier.

Like I mentioned earlier - if you are not sure about this ... get experienced doggie friends to give you a hand with the early stages ...

Cheers


May
Old Hand


Nov 19, 2004, 11:06 PM

Post #9 of 18 (2709 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmmmm...............means I got to let them together more often? Ok...will try to do that but must be strictly under supervision Wink.

Cheers .


sallychuah
Canine Addict

Nov 20, 2004, 6:57 AM

Post #10 of 18 (2691 views)
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Re: [May] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi may,

Ya, it's true u have to try let them to be together rather than separate. My MS which is the older dog and my first dog at here, he's actually teaching the other younger stray one to behave better than I ever thought. Just keep on eye of them without their notice, if u are worry that they might fight, may be u can keep saying 'NO' softly repeatly. Hmm... am I right surchinmy?


sallychuah
Canine Addict

Nov 20, 2004, 6:58 AM

Post #11 of 18 (2688 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank u very much for ur advise, I'll take good care of all my furkids...

Good day to u...


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 20, 2004, 8:37 AM

Post #12 of 18 (2675 views)
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Re: [sallychuah, May] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Sally & May,

Older dog & young dog

If the older dog is calm, steady & has good dog-communication skills ... then allowing a younger dog to interact with the older dog is generally a good idea ... The older dog will usually teach the younger dog how to behave, and what is acceptable behaviour ...

For example:

(a) If the younger dog bites/chews too hard during play - the older dog will reprimand and teach the young dog, through the use of dog body-language and various tones of barks & growls.

(b) The older dog will also teach the young dog how to use & interpret dog signals, such as - what different barks & growls mean ... And the young dog will learn which growls are play-play ... and which are serious ... And also teach the young dog how to use eyes, ears, tail & posture to communicate with other dogs.

Allowing interaction

(a) Degree of supervision:

However, when allowing 2 dogs to interact with one another for the first few times ... You are both correct to say that there must be supervision.

How much supervision or how strict that supervision must be, will depends on the dogs concerned ... their level of maturity ... their respective temperament ... and their size!!! ... For obvious reasons - always be careful & exercise caution when interacting one or more big dogs.

Which is why I mentioned - if not sure, then always have some experienced doggie people to assist with interaction the first few times ... just in case. So, that if there is an emergency or the dogs start to get on each other's nerves - then you have to separate them.

(b) Need to give space & room to move:

That said - for interaction to be useful - the dogs must be allowed enough space & freedom to move.

If you hold both dogs tightly with leashes ... and do not allow them any room or space to move, then no effective interaction will occur ... Being tightly leashed or controlled will ONLY stress the dogs & increase tension.

For effective interaction - the dogs must have room & space to move and smell each other, with enough latitude to use their bodies to communicate with each other.

The command "NO"

The better your dog understands the command NO, and the more immediately your dog obeys the command NO - the easier life will be ...

To have an effective command NO, the trainer has to learn to use his/her voice ...

Oftentimes, it is not whether the command is loud or soft ... but LOW & GROWLY ... a low-toned NOOOOOOO ... is most effective.

Personally, I don't even use the word NO ... I just growl from base of my throat - ARRRRRR ... and our dogs know they have to stop whatever they are doing ... and pay attention to me.

A good NO command will replicate how a mother dog uses her growl to control and/or reprimand her pups. Just watch how a mother dog does it and you will know exactly what I mean.

Once again ... get good training manuals ... much easier to learn that way ...

Cheers & all the best


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Nov 20, 2004, 8:46 AM)


sallychuah
Canine Addict

Nov 21, 2004, 6:13 AM

Post #13 of 18 (2651 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, that is very very good advise n details. Thank u. Hmm.., i think i usually say 'No, angry ah' then they'll understand too. Kinda funny, don't understand 'no' but can understand 'angry', hehehe.

Again, thank u very much.Sly


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 21, 2004, 7:02 AM

Post #14 of 18 (2643 views)
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Re: [sallychuah] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Most welcome ...

... Consciously take note of your tone of voice as you say your commands ... And it wouldn't surprise me that when you say "Angry Ah" ... you are actually using a lower tone of voice - and your dog is responding to that ... Smile


May
Old Hand


Nov 22, 2004, 5:58 PM

Post #15 of 18 (2625 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Thanks for the details advice. Hmm.....my older dog is calm and steady but the younger one is very playful and naughty. I noticed that letting them together during meal time actually helps to improve the small guy food possession problem . But the younger dog teaches the adult to become more playful and greedy with food Frown.

The adult understand the "no" command very well but not the small guy. Therefore, I always attach the leash on the small guy just to make sure if anything goes wrong I can easily get hold on him. As both are very different in sizes, one so big and one so small, I got to supervise them during playtime.

Cheers !!


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Nov 22, 2004, 7:21 PM

Post #16 of 18 (2619 views)
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Re: [May] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes ... young pups have the ability to bring out the "child" in all of us ... older dogs included ...

Just make sure the younger dog does not try to eat from the bowl of the older dog ... if you allow that - then you may find the older dog growling or eating faster ...

But otherwise every thing sounds normal ... so nothing to worry about ...

And you can start training your pup the command NO ...

Cheers


Kizarh
New User

Nov 22, 2004, 7:51 PM

Post #17 of 18 (2611 views)
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Re: [sallychuah] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes pups bites you because he want your attention(wanna play, wanna eat, whatever...). For example a pups bite her mom(bitch) mouth mean he wanna eat.

Edit: My Shih Tzu always do this to me.....

solution: say "no bite!" and remove his mouth then praise "Good dog".


(This post was edited by Kizarh on Nov 22, 2004, 7:54 PM)


sallychuah
Canine Addict

Dec 28, 2004, 2:20 AM

Post #18 of 18 (2338 views)
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Re: [Kizarh] BAD DOG!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi everyone,

First of all, I would like to wish all members Merry X'mas and Happy New Year!!!

Ok, come to my problem. My Brownie attacked again! He bit my father's arm n bleed. I just dun know how to continue on this anymore. Just past weekend we took our 2 dogs back to Pg, which Brownie haven't been there b4. So, the 2nd day, when I'm not around him, he just became 'bad' again. Brownie always like to jump on ppls body even it's stranger, my father's friend came to visit n she's afraid of dog. When Brownie saw her, he jump on her then my father try to stop him by pushing him softly away but he got crazy n bit my father then try to bite again. I did not hit him or scold him coz I know he could attack me as well when he's crazy. He did tried to bite me b4 but I react so fast,(sometimes ago) b4 he bite me I smack him first, he was confused. I dun mean to be abusive or to hit him, I dun know how to take care of this matter coz he always attack suddenly no matter who is with him, he seldom obey.

I think he's ok for sometimes except being stubborn most of the time, try to bite all of us n really bite one of us.

 
 




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