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Home: Breed Specific: Gundog Group:
"Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!"





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LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 1:43 AM

Post #26 of 161 (3517 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Ok - can understand what you are saying ... but for myself - am not so sure about the show temperament bit ... Certainly as you say, there is no harm with having dogs with good steady temperament and personalities ... happy dogs ...

Just that it would be a little sad to see a RR without that sense of "aloofness" ... that is such a hallmark of the breed ... Some of the RRs we saw at the Brisbane Royal in August, were more like Labs in temperament than RRs ... *sigh* ... But then - as you say, RRs no longer hunt in the savannah ... and maybe it's best they also become less aloof and blend more easily into a family with 2.3 children & 1.2 cars ... Tongue

Dachshunds are also supposed to be aloof but sadly aloofness in the unscrupulous hands of backyard breeders turns into agression and then people end up labeling breeds as dangerous and classifying dogs are dangerous and lethal. So based on that i'd stilll advocate breeding happy happy temperaments that love everyone! Perhaps then we wouldn't have the negative image of breeds such as Rottweilers, etc.


" ... But sadly some countries have blind disregard for health issues and conformation issues and follow trends and fashions and allow things such as missing teeth, etc etc plague the breed. Yet dogs with these faults are awarded top awards in the show ring! That is very sad and frightening because in due time you'll have these beautiful coated specimens with very showy attitudes, but who have to have their food blended bec they have no teeth to chew with! ..."

PS ... Interesting ... which country are you referring to? ... And - is it that bad? There is an expression known as the ALL AMERICAN SHOW DOG. Extremely long coat touching the ground (if a coated breed), sloping topline, wagging tail, ultra showman, 4 legs!!! Ofcourse before certain quarters start to jump, i must say that it's not in all the breeds but it has been known that some breeds they don't even bother if the dog has full dentition or a correct bite so long as it has the above criteria. Tongue

Ofcourse it's bad bec eventually you'll get dogs with no teeth on liquid diets!!! It has also been known that some of them put in neuticles for dogs who are monorchids. What happens is that you fool yourself and end up with dogs with all manner of health problems. Say all this has been done to a dog, sadly those other breeders who use this dog at stud will be unaware of these problems and end up breeding these problems making it worse as you've passed it one to another generation!!

LCK Cool

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 22, 2004, 9:15 AM

Post #27 of 161 (3494 views)
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Re: [LCK, skipper] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok ... see what you guys mean by "type" taking priority over "soundness" ...

Yes, a ridgless RR can be as sound as the best ridged RR ... but would not be "typical" or "type" of the RR breed.

Essentially ... "soundness" refers to whether a dog is physically sound (as in sound in construction, musculature, movement etc) ... And a dog can be sound but not necessary be of the "type" according to the standards for that breed.

Therefore, in pedigree & pedigree breeding, where each breed as a particular "standard" - "type" (meaning conformation as to standard) must come first and "soundness" follows next. This is not to mean that "soundness" is not important, just that "type" must come first!

Therefore a good specimen will be (a) first: of the correct type for that breed ... and then (b) second: Sound in construction, musculature, movement etc ... And good breeding must take that into account.



" ... Dachshunds are also supposed to be aloof but sadly aloofness in the unscrupulous hands of backyard breeders turns into agression and then people end up labeling breeds as dangerous and classifying dogs are dangerous and lethal. So based on that i'd stilll advocate breeding happy happy temperaments that love everyone! Perhaps then we wouldn't have the negative image of breeds such as Rottweilers, etc. ..."

Question: But wouldn't changing original temperament be detracting from "type" for that breed?



" ... There is an expression known as the ALL AMERICAN SHOW DOG. Extremely long coat touching the ground (if a coated breed), sloping topline, wagging tail, ultra showman, 4 legs!!! Of course before certain quarters start to jump, i must say that it's not in all the breeds but it has been known that some breeds they don't even bother if the dog has full dentition or a correct bite so long as it has the above criteria ..."

Question: In such cases ... wouldn't the judges have anything to say? ... Aren't judges also equally (or at least partially) responsible for degradation of the breed?



Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 22, 2004, 9:57 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 22, 2004, 9:19 AM

Post #28 of 161 (3493 views)
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post deleted [In reply to] Can't Post

*** deleted ...


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 22, 2004, 9:55 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 22, 2004, 9:39 AM

Post #29 of 161 (3492 views)
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Re: [LCK, skipper] ... What if??? [In reply to] Can't Post

A question to both of you ... Smile ...

If a novice were to approach you ... and express desire to breed pedigrees ... What advice would you give?

To make the question & answers more interesting, we will assume the following:

(a) The person is in Malaysia with reasonable source of funding, adequate facilities & space.

(b) The person has reasonable knowledge of the breed and breed standard, including appreciation of breed problems.

(c) The person has basic understanding of breeding principles.

Given the above, what kind of practical and pragmatic advice or suggestions would you give to a person earnestly wishing to start breeding pedigrees in a reasonably serious manner?

For example:
  • What are the key issues to keep in mind? ... What are the common pitfalls to avoid? ...
  • What are the basic criteria for & precautions to take, when selecting foundation stock? Should they start with a sire & dam? Or just a sire or dam? ... If so why?
  • What should a novice breeder be striving for in the first 3 or 5 years?

    ... etc
Thanks

P.S. ... Skipper - don't say busssssy okay ... let us know your thoughts too ... Tongue


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 22, 2004, 9:49 AM)


TOPDOG
ALPHA


Oct 22, 2004, 5:36 PM

Post #30 of 161 (3475 views)
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Re: [ALL] [In reply to] Can't Post

After following the various 'threads' in this section, I must say that all of you involved are highly experienced in these kind of dogs and I have no doubts that if I wanted a top quality GR, I would get one either from the few of you.

Forgive me for interfering but this debate is going nowhere as each one you trade blows and no one is willing to back down. Take a breather and why not let the matter rest once and for all? All it takes is just one of u to stop replying and the others will stop too. What has happened has happened and the past is past.

Why not just let it be? Live and let live dudes!
Dont see eye to eye, nvm lor, just avoid each other and talk less lor.

Hope you all give my postings some thought la. Blush
---------------------------------
ROMEOW!!!!!!!!!!


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 22, 2004, 7:35 PM

Post #31 of 161 (3458 views)
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Re: [TOPDOG] ... A discussion ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello ... appreciate your good intentions ...Smile... but perhaps, you might be mistaken.

The posts exchanged between LCK, skipper and myself are not antagonistic, abusive or rude ... whether to the other or to anyone else ... (*whisper* ... well, we take potshots every now and again - but that's okay too ...Tongue)

Of course, we challenge & question each other's ideas & view points ... And for sure we seek clarifications & ask questions ... that is to be expected & normal in any worthwhile discussion ... BUT what is equally important is that, the discourse/dialogue is being conducted in a healthy and progressive manner ...

Good points where made - are accepted. Concession and agreement when due - are given.

Differences in opinion, when based on good & sound reasoning - are respected ... welcome even.

So, what you see happening here is discussion - an exchange and exploration of ideas & view points ... Where no one is required to submit just because the other says so ... but also ... no one feels a need to defend a bad or incorrect position to the death - just for fear of being wrong ...

Some of the points and issues raised may be of interest to those interested in breeding ...

Feel free to participate ... Smile ... join in with your views & questions ...

Cheers

P.S. ... Errr ... And no, I don't sell GRs ...


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 22, 2004, 8:07 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 7:48 PM

Post #32 of 161 (3454 views)
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Re: [TOPDOG] [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi fren

This is what we call a healthy discussion. Note the lack of outright abuse or name calling or threats of turning up at anyones house to "sort them out." I guess it is a little different to the usual threads of "who owns a ECS? Come and post their name and funny story of what they did!" So i understand why you might be asking us to live and let live, but don't worry dude we're just fine. Join us - feel free to participate. No one will abuse you or ridicule or say you're stupid. In fact stupid people are the ones that never ask anything and learn nothing. Laugh

LCK Cool


P.s. I DEFINITELY do NOT own a GR. I own a far more intelligent and superior breed! LOL They are called Lap Cheong Kau (LCK)



In Reply To
After following the various 'threads' in this section, I must say that all of you involved are highly experienced in these kind of dogs and I have no doubts that if I wanted a top quality GR, I would get one either from the few of you.

Forgive me for interfering but this debate is going nowhere as each one you trade blows and no one is willing to back down. Take a breather and why not let the matter rest once and for all? All it takes is just one of u to stop replying and the others will stop too. What has happened has happened and the past is past.

Why not just let it be? Live and let live dudes!
Dont see eye to eye, nvm lor, just avoid each other and talk less lor.

Hope you all give my postings some thought la. Blush

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 22, 2004, 7:50 PM)


TOPDOG
ALPHA


Oct 22, 2004, 8:00 PM

Post #33 of 161 (3450 views)
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Re: [ALL] [In reply to] Can't Post

oh oh1 I think I posted in the wrong thread la. forgive me hehehe LaughLaughLaugh

HERO TRY HERO DIE Unsure
---------------------------------
ROMEOW!!!!!!!!!!


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 8:04 PM

Post #34 of 161 (3448 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

 


" ... Dachshunds are also supposed to be aloof but sadly aloofness in the unscrupulous hands of backyard breeders turns into agression and then people end up labeling breeds as dangerous and classifying dogs are dangerous and lethal. So based on that i'd stilll advocate breeding happy happy temperaments that love everyone! Perhaps then we wouldn't have the negative image of breeds such as Rottweilers, etc. ..."

Question: But wouldn't changing original temperament be detracting from "type" for that breed?
Type doesn't include an assessment of temperament. That is a separate issue all together and would be a secondary assessment. BUT if i saw a very typey dog that had a bad temperament or temperament not typical of its breed then i wouldn't want to use it in my breeding program or would not award it top awards, IF i was a judge. But by bad temperament i mean an extremely shy or agressive temperament. That would be the type of temperament that i would find supect and not want. Not for example a guard dog being overly friendly. To me that's perfectly acceptable. It WAS bred for guarding, but is now someone's beloved pet and show dog. If it was supposed to eat me in the ring then how can i as a judge, judge this dog?


" ... There is an expression known as the ALL AMERICAN SHOW DOG. Extremely long coat touching the ground (if a coated breed), sloping topline, wagging tail, ultra showman, 4 legs!!! Of course before certain quarters start to jump, i must say that it's not in all the breeds but it has been known that some breeds they don't even bother if the dog has full dentition or a correct bite so long as it has the above criteria ..."

Question: In such cases ... wouldn't the judges have anything to say? ... Aren't judges also equally (or at least partially) responsible for degradation of the breed? Absolutely right but these judges are breeders, exhibitors themselves and as such these things are of minimal importance and has become rife in the breed so look past these points as just about every dog might have a bad bite! They are all as bad as the other! So do you withold the entire breed? Well you'll never get an entry after that so they play ball!



Cheers

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 9:23 PM

Post #35 of 161 (3432 views)
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Re: [TOPDOG] [In reply to] Can't Post

Aiyah - i don't think you were in the wrong thread lah. Tongue Don't be scared. I promise we won't come to your house. Pirate Please feel free to participate in this thread if it interests you. Unsure

LCK Cool


In Reply To
oh oh1 I think I posted in the wrong thread la. forgive me hehehe LaughLaughLaugh

HERO TRY HERO DIE Unsure

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 9:23 PM

Post #36 of 161 (3432 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

ok...

my 1.9 cents worth....

i'm new in the so called 'dog world' and totally a newbie in the breeding, showing and etc.....

BUT i have to agree with Surch that Type and Soundness my be at least on par if not the latter come first.

Surch, LCK, Skipper : a quick one....what is/are the major distingusher(s) from one breed to another ? lets take GSD as an example...what LEFT in the GSD if they lost their natural drives ? ok, don use the word 'drive' too easy to get people confuse...let replace it with may be 'aloofness', 'suspicions' (not fear of people ok). I always believe a good and correct Type/Soundness of a GSD will nail the bad guys down in no time and will behave like a lab if not gr in the house with baby.

What makes a GSD stand up from the other breeds that can do the protection, guarding or whatsoever ? Answer is : AGILE - a GSD is not extreme in prey if compare to a lab, and fight/defend if compare to a rott and hunt/pack if compare to other cattle dog, BUT a GSD is above average of anything if not everything.

A GSD that without the 'aloofness'/drives is no longer a gsd.

Surch : i like the statement u quoted in ur post read like 'RR with the temperement of lab' ROTFLOL.Tongue Can a lab or labs hunt lion ah ?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 22, 2004, 9:31 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 9:33 PM

Post #37 of 161 (3423 views)
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Re: [LCK] [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I DEFINITELY do NOT own a GR. I own a far more intelligent and superior breed! LOL They are called Lap Cheong Kau (LCK)



Guess this statement is a bit on the extreme end.....don't you think so ?Tongue

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 9:35 PM

Post #38 of 161 (3422 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] ... What if??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surch,

This is the good one....

LCK : Your experience and thoughts regarding this will very well be appreciated.


In Reply To
A question to both of you ... Smile ...

If a novice were to approach you ... and express desire to breed pedigrees ... What advice would you give?

To make the question & answers more interesting, we will assume the following:

(a) The person is in Malaysia with reasonable source of funding, adequate facilities & space.

(b) The person has reasonable knowledge of the breed and breed standard, including appreciation of breed problems.

(c) The person has basic understanding of breeding principles.

Given the above, what kind of practical and pragmatic advice or suggestions would you give to a person earnestly wishing to start breeding pedigrees in a reasonably serious manner?

For example:
  • What are the key issues to keep in mind? ... What are the common pitfalls to avoid? ...
  • What are the basic criteria for & precautions to take, when selecting foundation stock? Should they start with a sire & dam? Or just a sire or dam? ... If so why?
  • What should a novice breeder be striving for in the first 3 or 5 years?

    ... etc
Thanks

P.S. ... Skipper - don't say busssssy okay ... let us know your thoughts too ... Tongue


Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 9:36 PM

Post #39 of 161 (3422 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] ... What if??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Aiyoh - email requires such a detailed answer!!! Wait for me to write my book lah the ZEN ART OF DOG BREEDING. Will reply when i have a bit more time ok! Hopefully Skipper will post a suitable reply!

LCK Cool


In Reply To
A question to both of you ... Smile ...

If a novice were to approach you ... and express desire to breed pedigrees ... What advice would you give?

To make the question & answers more interesting, we will assume the following:

(a) The person is in Malaysia with reasonable source of funding, adequate facilities & space.

(b) The person has reasonable knowledge of the breed and breed standard, including appreciation of breed problems.

(c) The person has basic understanding of breeding principles.

Given the above, what kind of practical and pragmatic advice or suggestions would you give to a person earnestly wishing to start breeding pedigrees in a reasonably serious manner?

For example:
  • What are the key issues to keep in mind? ... What are the common pitfalls to avoid? ...
  • What are the basic criteria for & precautions to take, when selecting foundation stock? Should they start with a sire & dam? Or just a sire or dam? ... If so why?
  • What should a novice breeder be striving for in the first 3 or 5 years?

    ... etc
Thanks

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 10:00 PM

Post #40 of 161 (3413 views)
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Re: [boon] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey boon

In a hurry.

Still don't change my stand on type and soundness. Both essential traits in assessing a show dog, but type ALWAYS comes first. If that is not fixed in a judge or breeders mind then they are not worth thier salt. You must learn what the words type and soundness mean in canine terminology and not just the English venacular as that is where your confusion currently arises. English words in dog terms mean very different things.

The GSD standard doesn't call for the dog to be aloof. I think you're getting mixed up with words. Aloofness allows an Afghan, RR & Dachshund to back off from a stranger (judge) if approached by them. A judge wouldn't penalise this behaviour in these breeds as they are supposed to be aloof. But if a GSD was aloof then a judge SHOULD penalise them as the GSD is supposed to be a guard dog and hence fearless of a stranger. A good GSD with good guarding instincts shouldn't attack the judge either as it is supposed to only act like that on command from the owner. Meaning it should be good with visitors to the house, kids, etc etc so long as the woner is present and allows the strangers to come in. But if a burglar entered the house uninvited then one would expect the GSD to do it's guarding job and attack the person. Get it?

This all becomes a personal preference i guess because i know many people who own GSD's bec they love the breed but let them sleep inside their bedrooms at night bec they didn't buy the dog as a guard and pet, but as a pet only so are not interested if the dog is a good guard dog or not! To them so long as it is a GSD they are not intrested in its natural guarding instincts detemining if it is a good GSD. If you were seriously exhibiting GSD's in Germany for example then it would require temperament and guarding tests like Schutzund (spelling?) which do require the dog to display their guarding instincts ON COMMAND.

I doubt Yeoh's RR's will ever keep lions in a corner waiting for the hunter to come shoot the lion, nor will his Lab ever go to retrieve ducks from a lake shot down by a hunter, nor will any show Beagle be part of a hunt pack, but does it mean they are any less a good representative of the breed? Not in my mind. I didn't get involved in Dachshunds bec i wanted to hunt badgers so it doesn't worry me if they don't! This starts a whole different topic about breed purpose VS show purpose. That is why in the UK etc people who hunt with their cockers don't bother to enter conformation dog shows as their hunting dogs are not bought and bred by them to be show dogs!!! Yes i know it can sound confusuing and contradicting but both dogs, although the same breed are being bred and used for entirely DIFFERENT purposes! This is a great debate actually where show people have over time often departed from the original reason the breed was developed. They have evovled for different purposes!

Can't list the distinguising breed features of each and every dog breed i'm afraid, but if you got hold of the breed standards of each and every breed, under characteristics it will very clearly tell you what distinguishes a GSD from a GR from a RR from a Pekingese.

Hope this helps.

LCK Cool



In Reply To
ok...

my 1.9 cents worth....

i'm new in the so called 'dog world' and totally a newbie in the breeding, showing and etc.....

BUT i have to agree with Surch that Type and Soundness my be at least on par if not the latter come first.

Surch, LCK, Skipper : a quick one....what is/are the major distingusher(s) from one breed to another ? lets take GSD as an example...what LEFT in the GSD if they lost their natural drives ? ok, don use the word 'drive' too easy to get people confuse...let replace it with may be 'aloofness', 'suspicions' (not fear of people ok). I always believe a good and correct Type/Soundness of a GSD will nail the bad guys down in no time and will behave like a lab if not gr in the house with baby.

What makes a GSD stand up from the other breeds that can do the protection, guarding or whatsoever ? Answer is : AGILE - a GSD is not extreme in prey if compare to a lab, and fight/defend if compare to a rott and hunt/pack if compare to other cattle dog, BUT a GSD is above average of anything if not everything.

A GSD that without the 'aloofness'/drives is no longer a gsd.

Surch : i like the statement u quoted in ur post read like 'RR with the temperement of lab' ROTFLOL.Tongue Can a lab or labs hunt lion ah ?

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 10:26 PM

Post #41 of 161 (3409 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Pirate sh!t...took me awhile to reply u and outof sudden the page get lost........sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 10:49 PM

Post #42 of 161 (3402 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

ok here come another...hope this time will not disappear out of sudden by itself....stupid IE.Mad

ok i have to admit that the terms in use...so guess better i use back the term that are commonly use in working gsd world. Supicions and scare/nervy/fear of people are from both extreme end.........

The SV type of show (German) their Schutzhund title for a show line dog is totally difference from the working line gsd trial. In german, show GSD must get their title, at least schh I, BST (breed survey or kurong (spelling)) before they can breed the dog and get the pups registered. The trial for a show GSD are nothing more than a 'GAME' to the dogs. the helpers or the so called bad guys are their buddy on the other end....they train the dog daily, showing/telling the dogs that it will be just fine if u bite, won't hurt you, take the bite from me and such.......on the other side of the breed, the working GSD trial, the helpers are totally a stranger to the dog, and will push the dog to the max (depend on the helper's quality lol :) )

Even those show GSD get their title on the local club trial or district trial....they will not make their way to the region and national and of coz the ultimate one, WUSV. Even some 1 in a million show dog can make it, but will not do good in the national level.


In Reply To
This all becomes a personal preference i guess because i know many people who own GSD's bec they love the breed but let them sleep inside their bedrooms at night bec they didn't buy the dog as a guard and pet, but as a pet only so are not interested if the dog is a good guard dog or not! To them so long as it is a GSD they are not intrested in its natural guarding instincts detemining if it is a good GSD. Guess the quote/statement from the father of the GSD says it all. From the book of GSD in Word and PIcture by Max v Stephanitz
Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)



as of this one........CrazyCrazyCrazy will leave it to the owner to reply.


Quote
I doubt Yeoh's RR's will ever keep lions in a corner waiting for the hunter to come shoot the lion, nor will his Lab ever go to retrieve ducks from a lake shot down by a hunter, nor will any show Beagle be part of a hunt pack, but does it mean they are any less a good representative of the breed?






In Reply To
This starts a whole different topic about breed purpose VS show purpose. That is why in the UK etc people who hunt with their cockers don't bother to enter conformation dog shows as their hunting dogs are not bought and bred by them to be show dogs!!! The same thing in GSD, the show and the working one.....when i say working GSD, i do mean those come from the pure working line originated from German, Czech, East German -DDR (once the communist regime) and may be belgium....(actually belgium lines are from German, but which line that is not originated from the origin country of the animal call German Shepherd. kind of contracditing also :)



As of the country u mentioned that their dogs need to get the food blended before feeding....i do know that they crossed the Irish Setter with a GR for color. But the darker color dogs are not desirable in Down Under.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 22, 2004, 10:54 PM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 22, 2004, 11:07 PM

Post #43 of 161 (3393 views)
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Re: [LCK, boon] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...



Boon

In my post ... I equated the definition of "type" to include "temperament" ...

And LCK corrected me by posting that where breeding for dog conformation showing (like the ones held by MKA) is concerned ... the word "type" refers ONLY to the physical characteristics of a breed that distinguishes it from other breeds and DOES NOT include reference to "temperament" ...

And as such, when a breeder breeds for dog conformation shows (as opposed to breeding for other purposes such as field trials etc) ... then "TYPE" remains the first criteria (because that is what a judge in a conformation show will be looking at first and foremost) ...

This is not to say that "temperament & soundness" are not important ... just that they come after "type" in order of priority ...



LCK

Hmmm ... I think I got that right ... TongueShocked ...



Now ... going to find padang with lions for the RRs ... You think Sungei Besi there got ar?

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 22, 2004, 11:13 PM)


Riccaval
ALPHA


Oct 22, 2004, 11:32 PM

Post #44 of 161 (3384 views)
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Re: [LCK] Breed "Type" [In reply to] Can't Post

Smilesorry for interrupting, uncle, just a short question.
I find some breeds, although subscribed to the breed standard differ SLIGHTLY in their appearance. So is it correct to say that there are different 'type's even though they are of the same breed???

For eg. homosapiens...ur type BIG STRONG and FRIENDLY vs our friend(AT) SKINNY, SOFTY.......still the same breed but just different type.....Correct ah?

your 50cents pls.Tongue


boon
Doggyman


Oct 22, 2004, 11:50 PM

Post #45 of 161 (3377 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

But...a dog, a breed to me is the package, type with or without appropriate temperement of the said breed is equally important. But sometime in reality....beauty pageant and olympic game are of 2 different requirement and field. So u can't expect the Miss Malaysia XYZ to win gold medal in the olympic games.

Fortunately, this is possible for a dog that has beauty and mind in one. The RR that will go out and hunt for Chow Chow if not lion lol and behave like a lab in the house. A GSD that will kills chicken on the street and behave like a gr in the house. this is all possible...... is just a matter of what do u want to do with your dog and where to find them..........

From the Down Under, There is a kennel that have 5 dual champions (if i remember correctly) that doing 'terribly good' in the ring and field. This is where the ultimate breeding goal come into place, the beauty and mind in one living creature.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 22, 2004, 11:52 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 23, 2004, 12:23 AM

Post #46 of 161 (3370 views)
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Re: [Riccaval] Breed "Type" [In reply to] Can't Post

Uncle Derek

You make me laugh as always!!! The quiet joker! Yes you're absolutely right. Even within a breed you will get distinct types or certain specific characteristics that can tell one kennel apart from another. For example in Australia you can see some LCK's in the ring and just by looking at the dog you can tell which kennel they come from as they carry certain hallmark traits of that bloodline! Essentially this is just a slight modification or difference from the basic breed type which still requires breed XYZ to have characteristics ABC! These tend to be more for the trained eye that is familiar with stock from that kennel and normally those kennels/bloodlines have been around for quite a while!

In my personal breeding progam my lines are based on 3 established kennels/bloodlines , two of which are inter-related and one which is quite an outcross. So when breeding i am getting a nice blend of all three kennels with some carrying more traits to one line and some towards another but some with a nice mix! One good example of a nice mix is Petra - Asian, Malaysian & Australian Ch. Hacienda Ewe Lil Beauty who is a mix of the 3 lines but cannot be singly identified as being typey to one particular line. That is why she appeals to a wide array of judges as she is a lovely blend. And believe it or not she is still line bred!

Type can ever differ from country to country - American dachs are very different to European, to UK and to Australasian dachs! That's what makes breeding exciting when you try to get the best of each world! But you must know what you're combining or you can end up with rojak and more problems than you can handle and total loss of all types!!!

LCK Cool


P.s. you owe me RM1,000. It's fifty cents per letter lah for my advice!! LOL

In Reply To
Smilesorry for interrupting, uncle, just a short question.
I find some breeds, although subscribed to the breed standard differ SLIGHTLY in their appearance. So is it correct to say that there are different 'type's even though they are of the same breed???

For eg. homosapiens...ur type BIG STRONG and FRIENDLY vs our friend(AT) SKINNY, SOFTY.......still the same breed but just different type.....Correct ah?

your 50cents pls.Tongue

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 23, 2004, 12:28 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 23, 2004, 1:57 AM

Post #47 of 161 (3353 views)
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Re: [boon] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Aaah Boon ... Tongue ...

True true ... There is a kennel in Perth with a number of Dual Retriever Champions ... but if I am not mistaken, even that Kennel has not had a dual champion for some time now ... The last dual champion was born in 1993 and passed away in 2001.

The breeder is still competing in both trials & at conformation shows, but (as best I know) with different dogs.

Which perhaps goes to show that today ... show dogs and trial dogs (even if supposedly to be of the same breed) are now very different from each other ... and the term "purpose" no longer hold the same meaning for both ... It's very hard to find a major show winning Labrador also winning retriever trials ...

Hence LCK's posting " ... Yes i know it can sound confusuing and contradicting but both dogs, although the same breed are being bred and used for entirely DIFFERENT purposes! This is a great debate actually where show people have over time often departed from the original reason the breed was developed. They have evovled for different purposes! ..."

By and large today, (as you will know from your own experience) a person wishing to purchase a pedigree Lab (or GSD even) has a choice, from show or field/working lines ... While it may be possible (anything is possible) it will be very difficumt to find a dog that excels in both ...

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 23, 2004, 1:58 AM)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 23, 2004, 2:02 AM

Post #48 of 161 (3348 views)
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Re: [LCK,surchinmy,All] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,I'm a newbie to all of this..so please excuse me if my questions seem shallow/stupid/petty to the sifu's BlushI do not mean to offend anyone and I hope my tone is not disrespectful. If it is,please excuse me,I do not mean to and it is my lack of command in the language that is to be blamed.

This is entirely dependent on what breeds you're talking about. Many breeds may have originated from country X but country Y is recognised as the country of development so depending on your breed you may not always want to go back to the country of origin to get new lines. For example, the dachshund is a German breed but country of development is UK. I'd never se myself going to Germany to buy a German dachshund as they are totally different to the ones i am used to. Essentially the fundamental breed aspects are still there but the styles are totally different. I guess with RR's the country of development is still country of origin?



Just wondering...say (for example) the german shepherd was developed in so many different countries ie. czech,slovakia & UK n they have their own "types" where they are physically different (not just show and working,i mean like the working line czech,slovak & german dogs look different physically) .The germans (though the breed has been developed there as well) think that the czech dogs are ugly(not all,but u get my drift) & The slovaks may think the german GSD is not that attractive. I highly doubt the czechs would want to include a german GSD into their breeding programme and vice versa. so u said, "I'd never se myself going to Germany to buy a German dachshund as they are totally different to the ones i am used to" Is this just your personal preference? Because i think the germans would never see themselves getting a dachshund from the UK because of the different "type" it has developed into in the UK. Also is there an official statement saying that country x is the country of origin and country y is country of developement or is this something "everyone knows" when you get into the breed?



Are we starting to get breeds with homogenous temperament?
I repeat my point above. Why not?!!!!! They can be better adjusted and more sociable but that doesn't mean you can ever eliminate their natural instinct. My dogs will not attack other dogs and are sociable to other dogs and humans, but if a rat runs past or cicak or bird flies to low they will kill it. Instinct is impossible to breed out of them. And its their instinct that sets them apart from the next breed of dog. My English setter was never trained to set, but watch him in the garden and he will set the birds for you as his ancestors many many moons ago did for huntsmen.



As you say instincts which sets different breeds apart are impossible to breed out of them,how is it that there are rotts who will run away and cower in fear when their owners are being attacked? or that ppl can break into the house without the rott defending the property? Isn't it the rotts "instinct" to protect and defend? When I mean protect and defend,I would not expect the dog to bite and kill but rather,just stand up to the threat. Although i agree with you,that these days there is not much of a need for a dog to be used for its original purpose(in this case,defending & protecting),but isn't the insticnt of a rott to protect and defend? and isn't it impossible to breed instincts out of a breed? At the moment the only thing i can think of is that like all the other breeds,the requirements(solid nerves,prey drive,civility,etc) for this kind of work has been bred out of them as there is no need for them any more.And this has negated the "instinct" as for a dog to defend and protect he needs solid nerves,defence drive,fight drive etc. With this example,is it possible that the breeding has gone so bad,that this "instinct" of the rotts has dissapeared? If so,what’s the difference of a rott and GR besides the physical aspects? Or am I wrong in the first place to say that defending and protecting is an instinct,rather than a trait?





Another question that I've always been wondering..why is it that the us/the americans/the judges think that (for example) the gsd's banana croup is soo attractive and is labeled as beautiful when it restricts the dogs from running miles and miles? or like the english bulldog,why is the extremely short muzzle,short legs and heavy body "beautiful" if it causes health problems? Crazy What I am trying to say here is, why are traits that cause health problems considered beautiful/attractive? In the earlier post, it was said that dogs bred for show are "beautful" and that some breeders go to the extreme and this causes health problems. But in the case of the bulldog..isn't it the case of what is considered beautiful for the bulldog and then ppl breeding to achieve that look?

I think this can be somewhat compared to humans but humans have media influence as well as the subconcious fertility aspect that affects what is attractive and what is not.... but for dogs...? Aren't we the ones who are playing god with how they end up?



Again I apologize if my tone is rude and/or disrespectful. I do not meant to sound that way. All views (including improvements on how i can sound friendlier) are welcomed.Smile Also I apologize that I'm not too good with words and things may seem like its beating around the bush.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



(This post was edited by RealityDreamer on Oct 23, 2004, 2:27 AM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 23, 2004, 2:02 AM

Post #49 of 161 (3348 views)
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Re: [boon] "Type" & "Soundness" [In reply to] Can't Post

The trial for a show GSD are nothing more than a 'GAME' to the dogs. Any working dogs do the work becuase it is fun. They enjoy what they do and we humans use their love for a "game" to get them to do what we want. Dogs doing Agility or Flyball really enjoy themselves, just in the same way many show dogs love the show ring and know they are on parade! Sheep farmers use the love of their Border collies to chase and herd to perform a task. That's why the dogs will continue to do it bec they enjoy a game. If they got bored or hated it they will never perform. That is how dogs function. They perform for the enjoyment or for reward! the helpers or the so called bad guys are their buddy on the other end....they train the dog daily, showing/telling the dogs that it will be just fine if u bite, won't hurt you, take the bite from me and such.......on the other side of the breed, the working GSD trial, the helpers are totally a stranger to the dog, and will push the dog to the max (depend on the helper's quality lol :) ) Not entirely true my friend. I started in GSD so know about them a little. The Agression/temperament test is done with ONE guy appointed by the show to come and test the dog. He is the SAME guy for all the contestants. So it's definitely not a "friend" that the dog is familiar that they bring along to do the test. And let me assure you that if the handlers gave the dog the same command outside the ring the dog will still go for you! We can try it out??? LOL

Guess the quote/statement from the father of the GSD says it all. From the book of GSD in Word and PIcture by Max v Stephanitz Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)
When God created Adam and Eve, he also had plans for them, but they also had their own plans. Things change! As mentioned before in this thread how many dogs today actually perform the function they were bred for? Only a handful.



As of the country u mentioned that their dogs need to get the food blended before feeding....i do know that they crossed the Irish Setter with a GR for color. But the darker color dogs are not desirable in Down Under. Yes very true. This is also what i've heard. The Irish setter also contributed to the longer coats.

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


TOPDOG
ALPHA


Oct 23, 2004, 2:22 AM

Post #50 of 161 (3343 views)
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Re: [LCK] [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Aiyah - i don't think you were in the wrong thread lah. Tongue Don't be scared. I promise we won't come to your house. Pirate Please feel free to participate in this thread if it interests you. Unsure

LCK Cool


In Reply To
oh oh1 I think I posted in the wrong thread la. forgive me hehehe LaughLaughLaugh

HERO TRY HERO DIE Unsure




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