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"Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!"





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surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 15, 2004, 3:16 AM

Post #1 of 161 (7060 views)
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"Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" Can't Post

quote:

"Champion and champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion and non champions never produces champion!"



The comment above gave me a good laugh. I think we discussed this issue a long time ago on this very forum when it first began.

Sorry to burst your bubble sifu Gan but that comment is utter tripe! Actually tripe quite tasty so i guess its utter rubbish!

Maybe after long enough in GR you will learn that non champion can produce champions and even become top producers. I know of many dogs that were never ever shown but produced champion after champion.

I myself have several at home who have never seen a showring but have produced Philippine Gr. Ch. Hall of Fame winners and Mal. Champions too. So how ah? You see sometimes we buys in lines through dogs that we know will never be show stoppers but who have the genetic make-up through their ancenstors who will be able to produce the goods if mated to the right dogs. When sitting down to plan a mating one should look at a 5 generation pedigree, trace back the ancestors and list the virtues and faults of these dogs and see if putting dog A & bitch B together will perpetuate a fault or hopefully correct one. It's a bit of a piece-meal and then you hope of the best.

But you need to trace back ATLEAST 3 generations to see if your planned breeding will give you what you want. When looking at the pedigree the letters CH in front of names diminish into insignificance as compared to virtues and faults. Or atleast it should do!

As such, non champions mated to the RIGHT non champions CAN produce champions.

I myself see no point in taking a dog or bitch to be shown just so they carry the CH words if in your heart you know that the animal is not worthy of the title CH. However what it carries genetically may be fantastic! Being involved in a breed where i need only beat myself, i have never practiced taking them in to make them CH, bec if in my mind they are not worthy of the title why bother. What does it prove? I doubt it increases saleability.

Just my 5 sen worth (enough money to send sms on celcom!)

LCK Smile

"HACIENDA"


*** The posting above is made with permission of author.


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 15, 2004, 3:21 AM)


Mey Lim SM
Member

Oct 15, 2004, 9:50 AM

Post #2 of 161 (7036 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I was the one who started that battle field........... sorry loh!!!

I'm not an anti-gan, I'm just speaking about things that I've really come accross. When Mr Gan mentioned that none of the Penang GR really make it to the top, yes, I do agree with him......... correct me if I'm wrong for the below was something I heard from some friends.

In the last year Penang Dog Show, the one in Komtar Dom. It was a two days vanue.On Saturday, Mr Gan's GR lose to a Penang Lang. On Sunday, Mr Gan protest and the Penang Lang become way behind him. ( From that moment, I actually think that all those dogs shows things are bullshit, pure politics ). However, I'm not the type that goes joinning competition one, so I don't comment on things that I don't know.

The other winners that I've mentioned are actually not GR, I know their owner very well and I know the price they paid for their winning pets, and it is really far, far way below the "CH market price."

Again, to Mr Glangan, I'm sorry that I've gave you trouble........... Take one advice, yes, you are a pro, but you don't have to sound SOMBONG, for that was the flame that started the whole thing.


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 15, 2004, 6:34 PM

Post #3 of 161 (7013 views)
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Re: [Mey Lim SM] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ya Mey ...

Don't worry about it ... you did nothing wrong ... and you are as entitled as everyone else in this forum to express your view ... Smile ... As long as we follow the rules of the Forum, we are all entitled to express our views.

Just treat this as an interesting topic of discussion ... so, that we can all read and perhaps learn ... about breeding pedigrees ...

As for dog conformation showing ... understand what you mean ...

The rules for dog conformation showing are designed to be fair & unbaised ... so that dogs achieving the title Champion are supposed to be good specimens of that breed ... and both the dog & owner can be justifiably proud of their achievement.

But sometimes the rules are abused or broken, and this happens wherever dog showing takes place ... And I guess, like it or not, it's just part and parcel of the whole dog showing scene everywhere ... Much depends on the relevant association maintaining the rules ...

Many different factors motivate people into showing their dogs ... some find it enjoyable, others find it profitable ... some both ... There are probably as many reasons as there are people showing dogs ... *Laugh* ...

Cheers


sbt
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2004, 2:01 AM

Post #4 of 161 (6975 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay! that is a "Breath of Fresh Air" around.

COOL! There is still hope for Non-Champion offspring. Anyone dare to dream?
A Dog is for Life, Not just for Christmas


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 16, 2004, 3:25 AM

Post #5 of 161 (6964 views)
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Re: [sbt] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

For sure it is possible - to get off-spring good enough to be titled even when the dam & sire are themselves not titled ... But emphasis is on the word ... "possible" ...

But I would not like to leave the impression that simply putting 2 pedigrees of the same breed together - will produce champions or is likely to produce champions.

Maybe it is safest to say this:

General Statement A: Dogs (and bitches) of good conformation, temperament & type (even without title) ... will have chance of producing good quality off-spring ...

General Statement B: The more consistently good conformation, temperament & type appears in the background of a dog (or bitch) ... the more likely that dog (or bitch) may reproduce such good qualities in its off-spring.

General Statement C: But all of the above - is complicated by the fact that you need to put a dog & bitch together to get pups ... Tongue ...

The very act of combining 2 sets of genes together - increases permutation and variation ... The fact that there is also possibility of throw-back and recessives coming into play - complicates things even more!

And all this makes breeding very variable, sometimes unpredictable and ... interesting.

So, a smart and experienced breeder will try to increase his or her chances of getting good quality pups by selecting the "right" good quality dog to go over the "right" good quality bitch ... always trying to balancing the strengths & weaknesses of the dog & bitch, not just as they are manifested in the dogs physically but also those which may be hidden in the genes & bloodlines ...

And in the effort to try and find the "right" dog for the "right" bitch, a breeder will examine very carefully in detail, the background of the dog & bitch, going over their bloodlines, their previous litters ... etc.

Good breeders will even plan ahead, and will be prepared to breed generations of dogs, just to try and get the "right" dog or bitch not now, but several generations down the line.

The mark of a good breeder lies in consistency ... not only do they breed good dogs, but the dogs they breed ALSO produces good quality dogs consistently through the generations.

It is this consistency that marks the difference between a one-time lucky breeder and a knowledgable breeder.

Which is why, serious and responsible breeders do not boast when they have a few titled dogs ... instead they emphasis a quality breeding programme, that consistently produces quality dogs over time.

A successful breeding programme is not just about putting a Champion to a Champion. And whether a dog or bitch is titled or not - is just one of the many factors that have to be studied & evaluated in its correct perspective.

Cheers


jaytan
Canine Addict


Oct 16, 2004, 5:51 PM

Post #6 of 161 (6953 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, When we are discussing mongrels, pooping and humping, everyone is a doggie lover and great friends. Somehow, when the topic turns to kibble brands, breeding and champions, then the discussion becomes very prickly. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Best regards,J


ciscoguy
New User


Oct 16, 2004, 5:57 PM

Post #7 of 161 (6951 views)
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Re: [jaytan] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

i think all the time where was only one cocky fella up here......geeeezz


jaytan
Canine Addict


Oct 16, 2004, 9:20 PM

Post #8 of 161 (6943 views)
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Re: [ciscoguy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

hi ciscoguy, I suspect that many share your sentiment which is understandable. Lets try to be a bit tolerant lah. After all, it is much easier for the rest of us to participate since we can choose to be anonymous, we dont have to live up to expectations and we dont represent any formal interest. So we dont have to be so conscious about public perceptions or politically correctness. All the same, your point is valid. Best regards,J


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 16, 2004, 9:26 PM

Post #9 of 161 (6940 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Uncle Surchin,

WHat I explain is that when I qouted that quote about ch and ch may or may not produce Ch but non and non, nevers, it is about the bloodlines and not the dogs'direct parents that are required Champions, what I mean is a true blue pedigree...! Anyway, I am sure Gopi did not allow you to cut and paste from the other forum, this is very unprofessional coming from a lawyer and a Ridgeback owner !!! Anyway, you misinterpreted my quote, well, maybe you should go deeper into breeding and stop becoming a "cyber breeder" and trying very hard to prove a point in the forum!! Prove yourself first dude in your breeding and show rings first la!!! I think Gopi will explain to you the catual explanation, it is his responsibility now!!! The rest I will leave to you to decide!!!

clangan


(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 16, 2004, 9:38 PM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 17, 2004, 11:42 AM

Post #10 of 161 (6906 views)
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Re: [clangan] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Uncle?

... How respectful ... And then after that you abuse me ... Cool ... Why like that wan? ... Pirate

" ... this is very unprofessional coming from a lawyer and a Ridgeback owner !!! Anyway, you misinterpreted my quote, well, maybe you should go deeper into breeding and stop becoming a "cyber breeder" and trying very hard to prove a point in the forum!! Prove yourself first dude in your breeding and show rings first la!!! I think Gopi will explain to you the catual explanation, it is his responsibility now!!! The rest I will leave to you to decide!!! ..."

First, what has career, profession or breed of dog owned, have to do with this discussion? ... We discussing "breeding champions from untitled dogs & bitches" right? ... We are not discussing your career prospects are we?

Second, what is there to misinterpret? ... Your statement is reproduced in all its glory, word for word ... as YOU wrote it ... There is no misinterpretation ...

Third, everytime someone disagrees with you ... you get abusive and start issuing challenges ... as if the issuance of a challenge somehow justifies your petulant behaviour ... or makes you right.

Let me let you in on a little secret ... Wink ...

I don't have to be a carpenter to appreciate good carpentry ... Nor do I have to be a gardener to like flowers ... and I certainly don't need to be stupid to recognise a duh statement when I read one ...

Finally, even if you modify your original statement to include a reference to bloodlines ... it is still WRONG! ...

Have a look at these websites containing pedigree records kept by truly experienced breeders.

And you will see Champions coming from bloodlines absolutely WITHOUT titles ... There are plenty of examples, going back 5 generations without a single trace of any titles in the bloodlines ...



www.harjaselan.com/Paavopedresearch.htm

members.westnet.com.au/makrhod/Pedigrees.html




So, how ar??? ... Maybe you'd like to modify your statement again? ...

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 17, 2004, 12:33 PM)


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 19, 2004, 3:30 AM

Post #11 of 161 (6853 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Cyber breeder + empty barrel = makes the loudest noise TongueCool...!!!


(This post was edited by clangan on Oct 19, 2004, 3:32 AM)


tgs006
Novice

Oct 19, 2004, 6:12 AM

Post #12 of 161 (6839 views)
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Re: [clangan] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope that it will not end up as in the case of vs Walter Lee Wink


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 19, 2004, 9:27 PM

Post #13 of 161 (6807 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Surchin,

Today I finally find sometime to reply to your mail. I hope I did not abuse you the way you mentioned it previously..! Blush"Somehow you're going to keep defending this Surchin cyber-breeder theory till the bitter end. And you are entitled to, so best we don't try to convince each other of our own opinions." also quoted by LCK, Hacienda except the italic bit!

You are more than welcome to quote your opinion and suggestions you learned from the web-sites by pasting web sites from others experience to prove your points but I will stick to mine from my hands-on experience. There are many guys I met like you, even in the Karate forum, there we respectfully address them as cyber-Karateka (who have many resources on web-sites and always trying to prove a point by pasting others experience or opinion because they have none of their own experience to back their own statements) and here I respectfully address you as a Cyber- Champion breeder. Thank you.

Clangan


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 20, 2004, 2:53 AM

Post #14 of 161 (6783 views)
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Re: [clangan] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Gentlemen. Let's just settle this once and for all and get on with life ok. Name calling etc is not constructive and wastes time dragging me to post on forums!!!!

OK According to Gan what he meant to say was that "Champion LINE and Champion Line mated may never produce champion but Non Champion LINE and Non champion LINE can never porduce Champions."

Ok to me that has a LITTLE bit more logic than the earlier statement and hence my posting. But it doesn't mean that dogs without champion titles to their name can never produce champions, as proved by Surchin through the pedigree url's posted earlier. However my own personal feeling is a compromise of the two. In that, don't expect to take your "pet" quality GR or whatever breed and mate it to another "pet" quality animal and hope that a few generations down the road you can produce a champion. Dogs from a champion lineage will have a higher likelihood of producing champions than dogs from totally non champion lines and by that i mean some backyard breeder who just mates any dog to any bitch. No champion dogs (titled) who have been carefully bred for the showring and who display and carry superior traits of that breed CAN produce champion progeny even if they are not champions themselves.

Let me point out that in the UK and certain European countries to gain a Champion title is near impossible as competition is very very stiff and so a quality dog who may be capable of gaining his champion title in a country where competition is not so intense, mey be an animal who is capable of producing champion progeny but may himself not be able to win his title. Hence non "champion" dogs can produce champions, but just remember that the breeder has most likely been very meticulous about breeding a quality animal from other similar quality animals over a period of time and all these animals whilst not champions themselves exemplify the breed standard and carried many good breed traits. Mating a bitch or dog from basically "pet'' lines to a dog or bitch from champion lines is not going to produce miracles. It you're lucky then it will be a miracle. It can take generations of careful breeding to get your desired animal. That is why to save the hassle i recommned people buy from good lines to start off with.

Is that as clear as mud? Anyway if your unsure ask. I would hate for any novices to go off thinking that a good stud dog is one that HAS to carry a Ch. title and at the same time i'd hate of any novices to think that their LULU who has a perdigree certificate mated to next doors MOOMOO can produce champions just by putting the two together!!! It's just more complicated than that and that is why uncle Gan it's best not to put generalized statements like that down as many greenhorns can misunderstand things VERY easily.

For those who are bored by this discussion - SORRY. But being a free list we all have a right to post and if it bores you then hit delete. But someone out there (hopefully) might benefit from this info. I've seen too many people buy a pedigree dog and who are told by the breeder that its a pedigree so can show it. They turn up to the show with a pure pet and get so disappointed when they lose. That is why a responsible breeder should sell pedigree dogs classed as PETS or SHOW POTENTIAL.

JMHO.

LCK ;-)
Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


clangan
K9 Maniac


Oct 20, 2004, 5:23 AM

Post #15 of 161 (6771 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Uncle Gopi,

So free visiting gundog turf? Ai'ya, I understand what you've written and at the same time I know the system practise by the European which is the same as ours. That's why Uncle Gan are still able to fly high here ma, otherwise we are going to have Lulu and Moomoo champions all over the country, just like some breeds where there are only one dog in the line up! The American system encourages more champions but if there are less than 12 dogs, there is no major awarded, that will not get the dog to finish. That's why in the Phillipines, they are easier to finish their title and some other less competitive countries that practises the American system. Well, I will let the cyber-champion breeder continue his dream while I continue to breed my Champions lor...! Anyway, what I don't understand is that why the cyber-champion took our post in the other forum and paste it here and talk like he has bred champions and knows everything and sign off using your ID? Sa per dhek pandi pee?

Clangan


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 20, 2004, 7:27 PM

Post #16 of 161 (6738 views)
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Re: [clangan] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes I'm always free when the record has to be set straight! Wink Generalised comments like the one you made on a forum that has many beginners is not right. It's time we educated people and got rid of the "big bone, big head" mentality that many people have when "assessing" the quality of a dog. Just read our local classifieds and you will see them proclaim "big head, big bone" like they are selling a prized calf for slaughter. What does having a big head have to do with a healthy animal? Ziltch. Crazy

That was why i allowed Surchin to cross post this message as it started in this forum, was taken across to the BnG forum and hence back to Puppy.com. He never signed off with my name but merely cross posted the message lah pandi. What's the big issue uncle Gan? Tongue Isn't that what you said? Didn't i clarify your statement? So why are you still whinging? I know a good vet who can debark and i'm sure if i passed the hat around many people will donate towards the durgery in first class ward some more. Cool I will even bring you Jacobs Biscuit and grapes. Ok or not? Pirate

As for the American system of majors - it is a well know fact that many breeders will bring a whole kampung of dogs - often their old retired dogs - to show on the day so that there are enough dog that to make a major!! And to correct you in the Philippines you also need the majors to become a champion so it still requires X amount of dogs to be present. So not really that easy as you say. Laugh

Bye for now Cool

LCK


In Reply To
Hello Uncle Gopi,

So free visiting gundog turf? The American system encourages more champions but if there are less than 12 dogs, there is no major awarded, that will not get the dog to finish. That's why in the Phillipines, they are easier to finish their title and some other less competitive countries that practises the American system. Anyway, what I don't understand is that why the cyber-champion took our post in the other forum and paste it here and talk like he has bred champions and knows everything and sign off using your ID? Sa per dhek pandi pee?


Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 20, 2004, 8:03 PM

Post #17 of 161 (6732 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Waaah ... so many post here already ar ... And also, now can really call you "uncle" hor ... congrats Smile

Back to the discussion at hand ...

If the statement had been ... "Champions or Champion lines are more likely to produce Champions" ... that would have been most acceptable ... The use of the word "NEVER", it not only obtuse but wholly misleading.

Perhaps some leeway ought to be given due to limited comprehension but how - when self grandiosities flourish like fungus on wet bread?

The fact of the case is ... everytime a breed is registered for the first time with any association or federation, the initial batch of champions will be the only champions in that newly introduced breed ... and will continue to be so until sufficient dogs get titled, and a pool of "officially" recognised lines are developed.

It will be most interesting to see what happens if the Shiloh Shepherd is accepted and recognised.

Even though RRidgebacks have been around for a while, they remain a marvellous case in point. Perhaps because of its origin, the mystic of introducing original African blood still intrigues many RR breeders (I suppose it's the same with other breeds too, GSDs from Germany, Tibetan Sp from the Himalayas etc), and many RR breeders still seek out older SAfrican RR lines from Glenaholm and Pronkberg for outcrossing.

But for some reason, many substantial Glenaholm and Pronkberg dogs were never shown to title. Perhaps because of scarcity in competition, the distances involved ... maybe Cdy of SRridge will know the exact reason. But whatever the reason, even as recently as 10 or so years ago ... as can be seen from Harjaselan's incredibly detail research into her own lines ... Titled RRs were coming out of lines without previous titles or with a very small smattering of titles.

As an aside, just last year, our friends from SRidge, R'nal and KJala (who you met recently) were very close to importing some Glenaholm/Karoskloof semen for use ... but in the end, they chose to go with Gatsby instead.

But ultimately, as is your point ... the longer a breed is registered, the more established the champion gene pool becomes, the less likely breeders (especially novice breeders who are more eager to establish quickly titled dogs) are inclined to look outside established lines.

While there is much to be said for sticking with developed lines - why start a new kennel 50yrs behind everyone else, when good lines are available, that shortens period of development ... it's a safer for sure (especially (as you say) with tough competition in many breeds) - some questions do arise:

For the pedigree buyer:

Yes, it's good that pedigree buyers realise that "big bone & big head" is not always the mark of a good specimen ... Unnaturally over-developed skeletal structure, carries many dangers of its own ...

Restriction of gene pool?

Has an alternative scenario is developed today? How is the propensity of relying on developed lines affecting the breeds generally? ... Is this actually better for the breed in the longer run? ... Most commonly, the issue of restricted gene pool is raised when discussing this question ... That is one issue.

Show conformation instead of type?

But more that, especially when looking at the way some breeds are going (US lines being a good example) ... Is this propensity to stick with so-called winning/champion lines causing not just health but serious conformation & type issues?

Are we going to see more and more dogs with - high or show stepping gaits, flashy in the extreme ... sloping toplines from withers to croup ... excessive angulation ... new neck and tail sets - just because they win, with perhaps scant regard to type & purpose ...

Show temperament instead of breed temperament?

Perhaps of most interest to me ... is it also bringing "change in breed temperament"? ...

Has this reliance on so-called Champion lines led to dogs being bred with "show temperament" as opposed to typical breed temperament?

This development is perhaps not so apparent with naturally gregarious breeds, and may be seen more clearly in some working/guard/herding type breeds ... dogs that show and behave well for the show ring - because they have had their breed type temperament bred out of them.

Are we starting to get breeds with homogenous temperament?

Does the maxim "best to the best" mean the same as it did 20years ago?

Has the maxim, breeding the "best to the best" been reduced to matching dogs from the lines with the most titles ... rather than matching dogs that conform best to type, standard & purpose? ...

And if so - is this what breeders truly believe is best for the breed? - Or is winning & money (with the event of sponsorship) now the overriding factor.

While time cannot be turned back - sponsorship & money shows are here to stay ... Would breeds not benefit from knowledgeable "mavericks" who would dare more ... and bring moderation back into play?

While many in this Forum are not breeders, a discussion on these issues may still be of interest to some ... and your thoughts will be appreciated.

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 20, 2004, 8:28 PM)


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 21, 2004, 1:03 AM

Post #18 of 161 (6707 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Waaah ... so many post here already ar ... And also, now can really call you "uncle" hor ... congrats Smile Thanks Tau keh!

Back to the discussion at hand ...

If the statement had been ... "Champions or Champion lines are more likely to produce Champions" ... that would have been most acceptable ... The use of the word "NEVER", it not only obtuse but wholly misleading. Totally 100% agree. Never was the word that basically got me going.
Perhaps some leeway ought to be given due to limited comprehension but how - when self grandiosities flourish like fungus on wet bread?
LOL.
The fact of the case is ... everytime a breed is registered for the first time with any association or federation, the initial batch of champions will be the only champions in that newly introduced breed ... and will continue to be so until sufficient dogs get titled, and a pool of "officially" recognised lines are developed.

It will be most interesting to see what happens if the Shiloh Shepherd is accepted and recognised.

Even though RRidgebacks have been around for a while, they remain a marvellous case in point. Perhaps because of its origin, the mystic of introducing original African blood still intrigues many RR breeders (I suppose it's the same with other breeds too, GSDs from Germany, Tibetan Sp from the Himalayas etc), and many RR breeders still seek out older SAfrican RR lines from Glenaholm and Pronkberg for outcrossing. This is entirely dependent on what breeds you're talking about. Many breeds may have originated from country X but country Y is recognised as the country of development so depending on your breed you may not always want to go back to the country of origin to get new lines. For example, the dachshund is a German breed but country of development is UK. I'd never se myself going to Germany to buy a German dachshund as they are totally different to the ones i am used to. Essentially the fundamental breed aspects are still there but the styles are totally different. I guess with RR's the country of development is still country of origin?

But for some reason, many substantial Glenaholm and Pronkberg dogs were never shown to title. Perhaps because of scarcity in competition, the distances involved ... maybe Cdy of SRridge will know the exact reason. But whatever the reason, even as recently as 10 or so years ago ... as can be seen from Harjaselan's incredibly detail research into her own lines ... Titled RRs were coming out of lines without previous titles or with a very small smattering of titles.
In these cases yes i guess situational reasons meant they were unable to show. But i do know of some dogs that are born of show lines, never shown bec breeders feel they are not 100% up to scratch but are used at stud or as brood bitches and can produce stunning progeny who can even be champions!!
But ultimately, as is your point ... the longer a breed is registered, the more established the champion gene pool becomes, the less likely breeders (especially novice breeders who are more eager to establish quickly titled dogs) are inclined to look outside established lines. You'd be foolish to. Why try to reinvent the wheel when it's already been done?

While there is much to be said for sticking with developed lines - why start a new kennel 50yrs behind everyone else, when good lines are available, that shortens period of development ... it's a safer for sure (especially (as you say) with tough competition in many breeds) - some questions do arise:

For the pedigree buyer:

Yes, it's good that pedigree buyers realise that "big bone & big head" is not always the mark of a good specimen ... Unnaturally over-developed skeletal structure, carries many dangers of its own ...

Restriction of gene pool?

Has an alternative scenario developed today? How is the propensity of relying on developed lines affecting the breeds generally? ... Is this actually better for the breed in the longer run? ... Most commonly, the issue of restricted gene pool is raised when discussing this question ... That is one issue. That is why we always look for outcrosses. It's generally safe to go three generations of in-breeding and then outcross. But you can outcross earlier if you wish if there is a bad trait developing in your lines that you want to correct so you outcross to a line that is strong in that area. So long as you are not KENNEL BLIND, do health tests regularly if your breed is affected by a particular disease then you can line breed all you want and it will be safe. For example two things which can plague dachshunds are PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy) and IVDD (Invertebral Disc Disease). Researchers in the UK are now through DNA testing trying to identify the gene that causes PRA so that in time to come when we DNA test youngsters you will know for sure if they carry that gene. If so then you discard them from your breeding program no matter how structurally correct they are. Likewise breeders in the USA are funding research by scientists to try and identify the gene that causes IVDD. That means in time to come, as a responsible breeder, if someone comes to me to use my stud dogs i will demand that they show me DNA testing which showed that their bitch is also clear. So the onus lies on breeders to enforce it. With that in mind genetic diseases are minimised, and hopefully eradicated. As for expanding Gene pools, with todays technology in AI (artificial Insemination) expanding ones gene pools is no longer a major worry. Sadly we in Malaysia don't have such facilities (yet).

Show conformation instead of type?

But more that, especially when looking at the way some breeds are going (US lines being a good example) ... Is this propensity to stick with so-called winning/champion lines causing not just health but serious conformation & type issues?

Are we going to see more and more dogs with - high or show stepping gaits, flashy in the extreme ... sloping toplines from withers to croup ... excessive angulation ... new neck and tail sets - just because they win, with perhaps scant regard to type & purpose ... Dog showing initially started not as beauty contests but as the assessment of breeding stock. Like a livestock market, people paraded their prized Foxhound or whatever to show off how good their dog was so when others wanted to breed their females they would come to them. These owners would also brag of the working ability of their dogs as the dogs were used for practical purposes. Despite what anyone wishes to believe - all dog breeds were developed for a specific purpose in mind. Dachshunds were bred with short legs so that they could go to ground and hunt badgers. The reason they have prominent prosternums is to give them ample lung space to be able to go to ground in a burrow 9 inches deep, some 20 or 30 feet down and still breathe. Fox terriers etc were bred with strong tails and were docked shorter so that hunters could use the tails to pull the dogs out of fox dens and burrows without breaking the tail and without having to dig them out if they are stuck! With the tail docked they grab them only by the root which is the strongest part of the tail! But the animal libbers and fancy vets will have you believe it was fashion. YEAH RITE! I digress. So esentially all these show dogs of yore had great working abilities. As time progressed and social classes disappeared the common man on the street could own a pedigree dog and so they became more popular and people started to enter dog shows. The shows changed type in that they took on more of a beauty aspect with confirmation stilll as the underlying deciding factor, but over time this has been further and further diluted through man's desire for fads and fashions. Fad and fashions? Well the American's mating an Irish Setter to an Afghan hound to get the very long coat gene! That is why American Irish setters have beautifully long coats. Some say these are myths bec the AKC will not allow you to cross breed, but these are things people did without making public knowledge so that they could get a beauty aspect accentuated. Everyone will claim they are breeding to type (i.e. what the dog was originally bred to do) but how many Gundogs these days go hunting? How many dachshunds go badger hunting? Etc. etc. I mean in the UK, US, Australia & Europe they have field trials but rarely do you get the hardcore show people going for field trials to prove their beautiful dogs working ability!! So yes we have bastardised some original working traits in breeds for beauty. I guess the trick to not to overdo anything! But sadly some countries have blind disregard for health issues and conformation issues and follow trends and fashions and aloow things such as missing teeth, etc etc plague the breed. Yet dogs with these faults are awarded top awards in the show ring! That is very sad and frightening because in due time you'll have these beautiful coated specimens with very showy attitudes, but who have to have their food blended bec they have no teeth to chew with! So whilst our show dogs might not be bred nowadays to do the exact functions they were originally bred for we still try VERY HARD to make sure that conformation wise they do conform and are structurally and mentally sound. Dogs being assesed in todays dog shows are still being assessed for correct conformation and ability to carry out the work they are done. But being show dogs people tend to close one eye to fashion elements like extremely long coats and so on. But you can't compromise on basic conformation and health!

Show temperament instead of breed temperament?

Perhaps of most interest to me ... is it also bringing "change in breed temperament"? ...

Has this reliance on so-called Champion lines led to dogs being bred with "show temperament" as opposed to typical breed temperament? As most dogs are now nothing more than house pets essentially why not have a show temperament? If by show temperament you mean outgoing, exuberant, love the whole world, scared of no one, bite no one, happy happy happy, then why not?? I want to breed a dog that will end up a model canine citizen. I mean ok lah some people still want to buy dogs to "guard" their house but that is becoming a rarer thing these days right? Most people wise up that an alarm system is far cheaper and easier to maintain. So why not have dogs that don't bite people or shy away?
This development is perhaps not so apparent with naturally gregarious breeds, and may be seen more clearly in some working/guard/herding type breeds ... dogs that show and behave well for the show ring - because they have had their breed type temperament bred out of them.

Are we starting to get breeds with homogenous temperament?
I repeat my point above. Why not?!!!!! They can be better adjusted and more sociable but that doesn't mean you can ever eliminate their natural instinct. My dogs will not attack other dogs and are sociable to other dogs and humans, but if a rat runs past or cicak or bird flies to low they will kill it. Instinct is impossible to breed out of them. And its their instinct that sets them apart from the next breed of dog. My English setter was never trained to set, but watch him in the garden and he will set the birds for you as his ancestors many many moons ago did for huntsmen.
Does the maxim "best to the best" mean the same as it did 20years ago?

Has the maxim, breeding the "best to the best" been reduced to matching dogs from the lines with the most titles ... rather than matching dogs that conform best to type, standard & purpose? ...
Depends who's interpreting it. If your doing it for money then you need all the extra sales factors to help you justify your price. If you're doing it for the love of your breed and for the quest of producing quality stock that are an imporvement of the last generation then best to best takes on a whole new meaning where titles fade away into oblivion. But to reach that stage you need to really know what you doing or atleast have a 80% idea of what you're doing. I am very fortunate in that i have a poll of very close friends in my selected breed, who are all longtime established breeders to who i turn to for help and advice. If i want to do a mating i will plan out what i want to do and ask them for their opinion. Then looking at pictures (or knowing the dogs) looking at pedigrees to see the ancestors, they will ask me why i decided and give me their opinion of what i could "hope" to expect! So in that i get the input of people familiar with my lines and longer in this game than me who will give me sound advice or who act as great sounding boards for me when i have something planned in my head. I never believe in seeking one single opinion as i find a selection of views from well ground breeders in you chosen breed can give you varying advice (as this is all subjective) and then you decide what course you want to ultimately take. I never believe i know it all and i always look to those who've been doing ti longer than me as that is where i gain knowledge! I was told one thing by one of my early doggy mentors - "keep your mouth shut and your ears open. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a good reason!" Ofcourse she meant ask questions by all means but don't open your mouth and think you know a lot if you actually don't. Nothing wrong asking as you have everything to gain when given the answer.
And if so - is this what breeders truly believe is best for the breed? - Or is winning & money (with the event of sponsorship) now the overriding factor.

While time cannot be turned back - sponsorship & money shows are here to stay ... Would breeds not benefit from knowledgeable "mavericks" who would dare more ... and bring moderation back into play?
Moderation is a subjective word. What is moderation to you may not be for me. I might argue that so what if they have stylish sloping toplines so long as they are healthy? And you could come back and say but the original dogs didn't have that and then it's your opinion against mine!! Why turn back the clock? Depending on what breed you're in you may have come a long way as far as health and such things are concerned so why go backwards! But i'd like to go back to get frozen semen from some great dogs who were way ahead of their time. Had we managed to store their semen and use it now things might be very different!
While many in this Forum are not breeders, a discussion on these issues may still be of interest to some ... and your thoughts will be appreciated.

Cheers

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction

(This post was edited by LCK on Oct 21, 2004, 1:20 AM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 21, 2004, 2:11 AM

Post #19 of 161 (6692 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Fast lar ... your reply ...

If I understand your post correctly ... what you say may be summarised as follows:

(a) Let's not get hooked up on trying to turn the clock back to the days when breeding was primarily for utility & purpose (breeding stock purpose) ... Times have changed and so has the purpose & ultimate aim for dog breeding ... Focus today (particularly in pedigree conformation dogs) is not so much to breed dogs for their "original" purpose ... but for validation in a show ring.

Whether that is right or wrong is not so much the question but an acceptance of the realities of dog breeding in the 21st Century.

(b) While you accept that breeding for purpose is still supposed to be the rally cry, in truth, modern dogs will not or for that matter, have opportunity, to be tested as their forefathers would have ... and that again is reflective of how the world has changed from when the first Labrador was first conceived ...

But as long as basic conformation/standard and health are maintained, you personally have no objection to the evolution that has taken place.

Similarly with "fad & fashion" ... and ... "show temperament" - as long as sound conformation, structure & health are not compromised, you also have no strong objection and will flow with the changes that have come about over time ... leaving plenty of room for personal preference and choice to breeders and their breeding.

Ok - can understand what you are saying ... but for myself - am not so sure about the show temperament bit ... Certainly as you say, there is no harm with having dogs with good steady temperament and personalities ... happy dogs ...

Just that it would be a little sad to see a RR without that sense of "aloofness" ... that is such a hallmark of the breed ... Some of the RRs we saw at the Brisbane Royal in August, were more like Labs in temperament than RRs ... *sigh* ... But then - as you say, RRs no longer hunt in the savannah ... and maybe it's best they also become less aloof and blend more easily into a family with 2.3 children & 1.2 cars ... Tongue

" ... I am very fortunate in that i have ... very close friends in my selected breed, who are all longtime established breeders to who i turn to for help and advice ... So in that i get the input of people familiar with my lines ... who will give me sound advice ... I never believe in seeking one single opinion as i find a selection of views from well ground breeders in you chosen breed can give you varying advice ... "keep your mouth shut and your ears open. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a good reason!" ..."

Yes ... having a close support group is very important. Having friends with experience & knowledge, who are prepared to listen with an open mind and then ready to share honest opinion is of immeasurable benefit ... And I guess, this applies to most human endeavours and not just dog breeding ...

Cheers

" ... But sadly some countries have blind disregard for health issues and conformation issues and follow trends and fashions and allow things such as missing teeth, etc etc plague the breed. Yet dogs with these faults are awarded top awards in the show ring! That is very sad and frightening because in due time you'll have these beautiful coated specimens with very showy attitudes, but who have to have their food blended bec they have no teeth to chew with! ..."

PS ... Interesting ... which country are you referring to? ... And - is it that bad?


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Oct 21, 2004, 2:15 AM)


skipper
Novice

Oct 21, 2004, 8:36 PM

Post #20 of 161 (6667 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

“Champion Line and Champion Line may never produce Champion but Non Champion Line and Non Champion Line can never produce Champion”

Honestly, in my opinion, I feel that statement cannot be taken as a gospel truth. I have the privilege to know many established breeders locally and aboard and they will never agreed to that statement. Good established breeder regardless what breeds they keep, when comes to breeding good dogs they have one thing in mind – TYPE!!! It is only correct to breed type to type. Breeding type comes above everything else regardless if the animals are titled or not. What is type? Type consists of the looks, the overall balance and the characteristic according to the country(s) and/or the continent of the breed standard. Not even soundness. Soundness always comes second.

A champion dog today in Malaysia might not become a champion in another country. So if one were to breed titles to titles I think he/she has missed the point of breeding.

“TYPE to TYPE produces TYPE just like pariah to pariah produces pariah”


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Oct 21, 2004, 11:26 PM

Post #21 of 161 (6648 views)
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Re: [skipper] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Agree with what you have posted ...

But there is one part of your posting that is most interesting ... where you say: ..." ... Not even soundness. Soundness always comes second ..."

If by "soundness" you mean the 'overall health, physical & genetic soundness' of the dog ... as in good sound skeletal, physical development & structure, good genetic background with minimal or absent genetically passed defects etc ... then I am wondering - why would an experienced & reputable breeder place "soundness" second to "type" ... and not at least on par with "type" ...

Cheers


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 1:04 AM

Post #22 of 161 (6634 views)
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Re: [skipper] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Skipper

Wah where have you been hiding?? Totally agree with your post!!! One of the basic fundamentals! Type is far more important than soundness!!!

Welcome and look forward to more posts from you! Sly

LCK Cool


In Reply To
“Champion Line and Champion Line may never produce Champion but Non Champion Line and Non Champion Line can never produce Champion”

Honestly, in my opinion, I feel that statement cannot be taken as a gospel truth. I have the privilege to know many established breeders locally and aboard and they will never agreed to that statement. Good established breeder regardless what breeds they keep, when comes to breeding good dogs they have one thing in mind – TYPE!!! It is only correct to breed type to type. Breeding type comes above everything else regardless if the animals are titled or not. What is type? Type consists of the looks, the overall balance and the characteristic according to the country(s) and/or the continent of the breed standard. Not even soundness. Soundness always comes second.

A champion dog today in Malaysia might not become a champion in another country. So if one were to breed titles to titles I think he/she has missed the point of breeding.

“TYPE to TYPE produces TYPE just like pariah to pariah produces pariah”

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


LCK
Dog Kichi


Oct 22, 2004, 1:18 AM

Post #23 of 161 (6632 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Soundness is something visible, so genetic soundness can never ever be know by just looking at a dog. Also it is not common to hear people say the pedigree is genetically sound. Maybe in time to come with all the DNA testing available we will be in a position to say the pedigree is genetically sound! Wink

But yes, to me soundness refers to overall good construction, good movement etc. Why breeders place type over soundness is simply because what distinguishes any breed from another is type. Type is of paramount importance as it sets it apart from the next breed of dog. As Skipper says, a pariah can also be sound (in fact you watch many of them and bec they roam the streets and are in good muscular condition they are VERY sound) so that is why you'd never place soundness on par with type, as soundness doesn't distinguish one breed from another! Sly

If i'm judging Dachshunds and someone comes in with a dachshund cross that is very sound, do i place that an equal first with the purebred dachshund that is more characteristic (typey) of its breed than the crossbreed??? Both are dogs and the cross bred is more sound, but i'm judging dachsunds and so i judge to type and put up the animal that is the best representative of the breed, carrying as much of the breed characteristics as it is supposed to. Would be similar to a RR with a ridge and one born without.

Would you agree Skipper?

LCK
Cool


In Reply To
Hi ...

Agree with what you have posted ...

But there is one part of your posting that is most interesting ... where you say: ..." ... Not even soundness. Soundness always comes second ..."

If by "soundness" you mean the 'overall health, physical & genetic soundness' of the dog ... as in good sound skeletal, physical development & structure, good genetic background with minimal or absent genetically passed defects etc ... then I am wondering - why would an experienced & reputable breeder place "soundness" second to "type" ... and not at least on par with "type" ...

Cheers

Hacienda
Dachshunds of Distinction


skipper
Novice

Oct 22, 2004, 1:20 AM

Post #24 of 161 (6629 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Ahya surchin, me no Champion breeder...Lol, don't lah ask more questions, no time to answer lah. Ok will try to respond sometime tomorrow. Please give your Seng Seng a pat for me. Take care very busssy got to dash.

Cheers.


skipper
Novice

Oct 22, 2004, 1:34 AM

Post #25 of 161 (6627 views)
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Re: [LCK] "Champion & champion may or may not procudes champions, non champion & non champions never produces champion!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello LCK, I was about to log off and you came in. Apa lah!! Yes agreeeee, At least this discuss is more sound than the previous one...lol. Sometime I wonder if you really need to breed such a good type to win...take a look at PSR. She's sound but fugly...yak! Ok got to go now talk soon. Cheers.

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