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Cloning issues







arthur
ALPHA


Jan 1, 2003, 9:27 AM

Post #1 of 9 (1753 views)
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Cloning issues Can't Post

Hi All!

The recent headlines on the 1st human cloning raised some questions that I have:

1. I always wondered if a cloned human will have a soul. If yes, is it the same soul? If no, then where does this new soul comes from? The major religous faiths generally states that the soul comes from God and is created at the moment of conception. The Hindu/Buddist faith has it that there are many souls waiting to be reborn. Certain babies will attract certain types of souls. Would love to share / hear your opinion.

2. If the answer is NO, ie. cloned humans do not have souls, this certainly raises many other questions. To really answer this question, we should define what a human soul is..something that I find difficult to do. Gosh am I making any sense here? Crazy Better not get my knickers in a twist!

Rdgs Arthur


valery
Member


Jan 3, 2003, 2:15 AM

Post #2 of 9 (1736 views)
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Re: [arthur] Cloning issues [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Arthur & Happy New Year,

There have been too many questions and doubts raised about cloning. I have lots of reading to catch up on, so I can only assume (from the movies; I guess this is where the idea came about) that it's about the alternation of genes and DNA. These genetic identification markers are altered to suit. Frankly, I am not one for clonning. Birth (rebirth) and death should be left to God and God alone. But if you're talking about a soul; yes, I do believe that a clone would have a soul. In some time or other, there would have had to be a form of conception and I believe that the DNA from the embryo is altered according to order. It is sad thing that we humans have finally resorted to cloning. Some say that it is how they want to remember their loved ones who have passed on and others say that they want an intelligent child. My question is... would they still love the child is the cloning went wrong and the child was born deaf or without limbs. If one resorts to cloning, I believe that the expectation is high and similarly the disappointment too. As I said earlier on, let's leave the subject of human regeneration to God and let him decide if we would be blue, green or brown eyed, if we are tall and thin or stumpy like a potato! Resorting to cloning also reflects how much faith we have, both in our religion and ourselves. Perhaps, our future generations may resort to this method of reproduction, but until it has really become an acceptable matter, I'll just lay back and watch the fun. Next thing you know, you'll only have to toss a coin into a vending machine and out comes your "twin" in 3 minutes (just like Maggie mee). Then you can "ponteng" while you "twin" does all the work for you. Who knows, this may become an industry in the future; creating identical twins, not simply cloning for genetic identity.

Valery


luckey
ALPHA


Jan 3, 2003, 8:37 AM

Post #3 of 9 (1722 views)
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Re: [valery] Cloning issues [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah have you watched Multiplicity? didnt happen that way eh... your twin soon won;t want to be doing all the dirty work while you enjoy. i guess cloning raises many disturbing issues... abnormalities and handicaps, brave new world issues, hey look at the cloned army in starwars and lord of the rings.

but yes i agree, i think all living things have a soul, whether they were conceived naturally or by cloning. and everything deserves to have a chance in life, whether a normal baby, dog, or clone.


valery
Member


Jan 3, 2003, 4:47 PM

Post #4 of 9 (1717 views)
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Re: [luckey] Cloning issues [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Luckey,

Happy New Year

It is indeed strange to see how some would resort to achieving perfection. But if one were to have a clonned child, would you still treat is as a human being or a machine. R2D2 !!! Why would a person make such a decision anyway especially when there are other methods of conceiving ie artificial insemination, test tube, etc..... I can only presume that it is their way of achieving the most sought after human perfection or rather a remedy to human imperfections. But whatever it is, the final word is responsibility. Will we (as humans) be able to nurture and love a clone (psychologically ready ?)

Many questions may arise from society, eg, acceptance being the most important and what would a child be subjected to as a clone ? Will he/she have any special identification. Perhaps in the future, we will be clone shopping instead !

Valery


spaniel
Novice

Jan 4, 2003, 8:47 AM

Post #5 of 9 (1697 views)
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Re: [valery] Cloning issues [In reply to] Can't Post

Allow me to express my opinion, which is slightly deviated from the topic of whether clones do have a soul or otherwise. IMHO, God the Almighty whom we human perceive as a perfectionist yet His creations have flaws, imperfections... defects and so on. Nobody's perfect and yet they are creating life with this methodology which nobody knows if this is the way to go. Only time will tell about its repercussions.

Are humans sealing its fate, blinded by the noble intention of scientific discovery which in the end will be the undoing of mankind ? I rest my case here.


arthur
ALPHA


Jan 5, 2003, 8:45 AM

Post #6 of 9 (1692 views)
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Re: [valery] Cloning issues [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Valery,

Sorry for the late reply. I read your reply with interest. You have raised an interesting point..will a cloned person have the same rights and prvileges under the legal system? For that we have to look at the legal defination of a human being.. Dunno what that is! Me thinks me have to search the internet for this defination. As to the question why clone humans, I guess it really a matter of scientific pride..just to show or see if it can be done or not.

I still have not found the answer to my questions earlier. Maybe this is something that I have to work it out myself. Unsure Sometimes I ask too many questions..

Rdgs Arthur


luckey
ALPHA


Jan 5, 2003, 9:22 AM

Post #7 of 9 (1689 views)
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Re: [arthur] Cloning issues [In reply to] Can't Post

HI Arthur

Been pondering the issue on cloning since you brought it up and discussed with some buddhist monk friends too... their view is that every living thing has a soul... even mites and flies are all individual souls in insect bodies.

Identical twins i guess are the best proof to lead on to the conclusion that eac clone will have a unique soul. Twins are made in the same way clones are formed... they start off as one, then split into two. But int he end, they are two different people.

As for legal issues, don't know if they have such laws yet, since a successful human clone has not happend yet. But it would be most awful if we could clone hummans in the future but the clones don't have the same rights and are treated like slaves born into this world not to lead their own lives but for a specific purpose to serve the rest of the "natural" community. That would indeed be very sad. Taking animaml cruelty to a new level.


arthur
ALPHA


Jan 5, 2003, 9:44 AM

Post #8 of 9 (1686 views)
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Re: [luckey] Cloning issues [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jennifer!

Guess we are keeping late nights on Saturdays!Sly

Thks for your quick reply. The issue of twins is okay cos' they are naturally conceived. The Buddist view is that once new embryos are created, they will attract the correct kind of souls to come in..2 embryos in the case of twins, 2 souls. Nice and simple.

However when it comes to cloning we are taking a cell from a living being (with soul) and creating a new embryo from that. Which brings me to my original question..does the clone have a new soul? or part of the original soul? If the clone has a new soul, then it's logical to say that our soul does not permeate down to the genetic level. It resides somewhere else.

If however, the clone retains the original soul (dunno how to prove that!), then we can say our soul permeates down to the genetic level. Our soul resides in every bit of our bodies. Guess that is what I want to know for sure. I won't question where the soul comes from or goes to when we die. That is another topic all together. Thks for taking the time to reply Jennifer.

Rdgs arthur (Now you have started me wondering..do doggies have animal souls?Crazy Oh No what have you done Jennifer?)


valery
Member


Jan 6, 2003, 4:52 PM

Post #9 of 9 (1674 views)
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Re: [arthur] Cloning issues [In reply to] Can't Post

WinkHi Arthur & Spaniel,

Good morning. I think that at the end of the day, it all boils down to whether we can or cannot accept scientific advancement (cloning)? I feel that this has been soemthing experimented with for some time already. Imagine the movies we watched on such related topics way back and I'm sure they must have got the idea from somewhere or someone must have expanded on the idea! I'm sure that God has provided each living being with a sould. Do insects, reptiles,etc have souls? Who knows...but certain religions belive strongly in reincarnation and from my point of view, reincarnation requires that one's soul leaves the body to be re-born...as an insect perhaps ??? No pun intended to other readers. Just a matter of disecting the cloning and soul issue. From a personal point of view, I would never resort to cloning for moral reasons. I would feel very wrong for a human being (clone) to enter this world when we cannot even be sure if society would accept them or what type of social issues we would be subjecting them to. What if they really do have a soul, would we be committing ultimate sin ????? I think that we really have to sit down and ask ourselves, why and what if. Why would we resort to such measures of reproduction and what if the produce is defective ? Can we return it or do we simply destroy it just like our daily garbage. Would there be a recycling centre where we can simply dump our clones and get new ones or would we be able to just walk along the supermarket aisle and grab one of the rach.

Aiyo Arthur....now I really got headache!!! Imagine if you really saw someone that looked like you or if someone said they thought they saw you. What would your thoughts be ?

Valery

 
 




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