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Dominant Dog





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RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 20, 2003, 9:47 PM

Post #26 of 66 (6196 views)
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Re: [Gwinn] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

aah...that gathering's going to be a while.. Unsure

Smileat the moment....i plan to bring her to padang merbok...

though there are quite a number of dogs...maybe we can hang out at the outskirts of the field..
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



(This post was edited by RealityDreamer on Oct 20, 2003, 9:56 PM)


nickanna
Canine Addict


Oct 21, 2003, 6:17 AM

Post #27 of 66 (6192 views)
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Re: [Gwinn] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Gwinn,

Your small gethering idea sounds good..can u update me a lil info on those gathering??? Tongue


Tracey
New User

Jan 1, 2004, 8:28 AM

Post #28 of 66 (6171 views)
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Re: [nickanna] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi;



I have a 4 1/2 yr old GSD and he is fine with people but he is alwyas picking on the other dogs we own (3). We have tried taking him to places where there are alot of other dogs and he will tear into any of them at random. They can be minding their own business and he will come out of nowhere and rip into them. He does it at home too. We have tried disiplining him (didn't work). Tried making sure he gets everything first (didn't work). Letting the have it out (vet trip and didn't work). He still will tear into them at his leasure for no reason at all. Any help would be appreciated.Crazy


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jan 1, 2004, 11:04 AM

Post #29 of 66 (6168 views)
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Re: [Tracey] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

In your other post, you say you adopted your GSD ... A dog's breeding, how it was brought up and reared - will shape a dog's behaviorial pattern ... Bad or poor rearing can cause or force a dog to adopt, acquire or learn "bad" habits ... and make for a nervous or temperamental dog ... When adopting an adult dog, the dog's background is often a big question mark.

All dogs need to be sufficiently socialised (both with people & other dogs) and they also need training ... particularly dogs with nervous or dominant temperament ...

It does sound that your dog needs both socialisation and discipline ... By discipline, I do not mean physical punishment ... but a discipline introduced through consistent and regular training sessions whereby the owner establishes firm, fair and reasonable leadership, earning the dog's respect & trust ...

The more time you spend training & playing with your dog ... the easier it will be you to retain & exercise control & leadership over your dog ... there is no short cut ...

It is extremely rare for a dog to move from a calm, sedate mode into a "rip & tear" mode without giving some kind of signal or sign ...

Perhaps you need to learn about your GSD, learn to recognise the signals he may be giving ... Perhaps you need to understand why or what makes your dog anxious or nervous ...

If your GSD is as violent as your post suggests ... then you have to seriously start training & socialising your dog, or get an experienced dog person to give you hands-on assistance ...

Cheers


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Jan 1, 2004, 11:13 AM)


nickanna
Canine Addict


Jan 2, 2004, 7:15 PM

Post #30 of 66 (6153 views)
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Re: [Tracey] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

hi..hi..

Hmm..4 1/2 yrs having this temperament is rather difficult to change..make sure u dont leave him play without any supervision with ur other dogs Unimpressed...I would agree with Surchinny that u might wanna consider sending ur GSD to a professional trainer.. Smile

All the Best and keep us updated with his progress!! Tongue


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Jan 2, 2004, 7:44 PM

Post #31 of 66 (6151 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Just wondering, how does the trainer help with an aggresive and dominant dog?

Now I think I understand why Hazel might be aggresive, possibly the poor girl has been exposed to bad experiences with new dogs.

Just yesterday, was walking and a retriever came up(he was unleashed) and as usual, thinks all dogs want to play lol. Well anyway, you know Hazel. I was actually surprised,she didn't bite him. Just showed very defensive behaviour ie. barking,snarling,snapping. The retriever didn't get it and still thought it was playing and when he finally he realized she meant business,he bit her. Pirate

Nothing serious. Only injuries were scrapes frm falling down. She was trying to get away and was on the leash.lost her balance.

After all that..looking at the retriever,he still wanted to play with Hazel.Unimpressed

I think I need a really high threshold mastiff to socialize with Hazel.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jan 3, 2004, 2:53 AM

Post #32 of 66 (6140 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer, Hunter] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Just a thought ... there is a difference between an aggressive dog (namely, one who bites without provocation or warning) and a dog wanting to be dominant ... An aggressive dog is usually anxious or fearful (or just has bad temperament) ... while a dog wanting to be dominant is acting as nature designed dogs ...

The dog wishing to be dominant, will usually give of signals of increasing intensity, but once the other dog submits ... then the situation cools off and play can begin ... A fearful dog, however will not respect those signals and trouble brews ...

But recalling what I remember of Hazel, I hesitate to label Hazel an "aggressive" dog ... Hazel is fine with people - Hazel may however be nervous and fearful of her space being invaded by other dogs ...

Often the answer to a fearful dog is to recondition or desensitise the dog ...

Courtesy of Patricia McConnel ... here are the steps:

1st Step

Keep your dog safe. Until you start reconditioning - try and avoid all situations that bring about the fear ... If Hazel gets bitten or bites another dog ... that will just make everything more difficult.

Continually pulling or tugging on leash, using choke chains etc ... doesn't really help ... and might actually increase fear in the dog. When exposed to a fearful situation, even if nothing happens, the tugging and pulling will just teach Hazel to be more fearful.

2nd Step

Find out what exactly frightens Hazel (the bad) ... Is it all dogs or just some kinds/types of dog?

3rd Step

Find out what your dog LOVES (the good) - and is so passionate about, she will do anything for ... whether it's liver treat or a tennis ball ...

4th Step

Put the "good" & "bad" together ... Create a situation with high intensity of good and low intensity of bad.

For example: A piece of liver under Hazel's nose (high intensity good) and a strange dog far away (low intensity bad).

The key here is to give the high intensity good BEFORE the low intensity bad appears.

So, if you have determined that Hazel gets aggitated by another dog at 50ft, then give the treat at 60ft, just BEFORE the strange dog appears. Continue giving treats after the strange dog appears. After a while and before Hazel gets aggitated - move away.

You will need to create this situation with the help of friends.

Repeat again and again ...

Carry out sessions in different environments, under differnt conditions, at different times. Err on being conservative. Take it slow. Once you are quite sure Hazel is comfortable with strange dogs at 50ft ... then take the next step.

5th Step

Reverse the trigger ...

When the strange dog appears at 50ft ... and Hazel is comfortable, then give the treat and continue giving treats, then move away.

In this step, the treat is given AFTER the bad appears and Hazel remains comfortable.

This is classical conditioning. Done consistently, the dog learns to associate the strange dog with the high intensity treat ... In classical conditioning, the dog is taught to react to the bad in the same way as it reacts to the good. Repeated often enough - Hazel will start seeing the strange dog as a walking piece of liver ... Tongue ...

Repeat again and again in different environments.

6th Step

Increase the intensity of the bad ... In this final stage, gradually increase the intensity of the bad as the good is given.

For example ... If Hazel get anxious with another dog at 30ft, start giving treats when the other dog is at 40ft and continue giving treats as the strange dog gets closer and closer ... But before Hazel gets aggitated, move Hazel away.

Repeat and repeat, slowly reducing the distance between Hazel and strange dog.

One method is to hold out the treat at 40ft, focus Hazel's attention on the treat ... Hold out treat as other dog moves closer and just before Hazel gets aggitated at 30ft ... give the treat (and continue giving treats) - distract Hazel's attention away from other dog ... Move away before the intensity of the treat wears out ...

General tips:

Act conservatively ... better to over train and under train.

Carry out training in different environment with different dogs.

Don't sweat the small stuff ... don't expect to be perfect all the time.

Keep the sessions short and up beat.



The caution is ... this process never stops ... even after the conditioning appears effective ... the training never ends ... and usually has to be reinforced from time to time ... At sign of any regression, be prepared to back up and retrain.

Cheers Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Jan 3, 2004, 3:00 AM)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Jan 3, 2004, 8:51 AM

Post #33 of 66 (6131 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,Smile

Thanks very much for the tips. It really helps.

Also,after reading an article,I suspect that she is a nervous wreckTongue ok,not that bad. But she is fearful of other dogs,I think.

One problem is, all the new dogs that she has met,except one(a nice & calm female BM) has been agressive towards her. Towards the BM, she just sniff sniff,no reaction frm BM..all is well. Can stand next to her even.

Thanks again.Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jan 4, 2004, 2:12 AM

Post #34 of 66 (6121 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome ... hope it helps ...

Naaah ... Hazel is not a nervous wreck ... she is fine, just needs a little reconditioning ...

There is a condition known as "kennelosis" ... where dogs crated or kennelled in prolonged, without sufficient socialisation, suffering improper management, develop "anxiety and/or shyness".

Cheers Smile


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Jan 4, 2004, 3:01 AM

Post #35 of 66 (6116 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello,Smile

Could you elborate more on the "anxiety and shyness"?

Think it's possible that Hazel suffers frm a case of seperation anxiety when she is in a new environment.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jan 4, 2004, 6:46 AM

Post #36 of 66 (6111 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

"Shy" will describe a dog that startles easily, whether by unexpected noise or events ... Pups that have been poorly reared, especially during their "fear" periods may grow up to be shy dogs ... Shy dogs can also result from poor socialisation ... Such dogs often exhibit submissive urination into adulthood and can tend to suffer from separation anxiety more acutely ... and sometimes develop into "anxious" dogs ...

"Anxious" dogs ... are dogs of nervous temperament, such dogs have difficulty adapting to unfamiliar circumstances. For example: They growl or snarl when approached by unfamiliar people or other dogs ... They tend to read threat into circumstances unfamiliar to them ... And in the more severe cases ... such dogs may have a low bite threshold ... or exhibit aggression ...

But really, the terms "shy" and "anxious" are not terms of art ... and generally describe dogs of suspect temperament ... very often dogs will exhibit both tendencies in an overlapping manner, in varying degrees ... Poorly breed dogs, poorly brought up & badly managed dogs can exhibit these tendencies ...

But it is possible to see how a dog that's been abandoned, or poorly managed or reared, or kept close chained or isolated for prolonged periods, or deprived of reasonable human/canine interraction can develop such tendencies ...

Hazel - separation anxiety in new environment? ... But her environment is stable now right?

Cheers Smile


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Jan 5, 2004, 8:24 AM

Post #37 of 66 (6100 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello,

Thanks for the explanationSmile

At home and in familiar environments, yes. It's stable and she's alright with it. Can leave me and sniff around.

In new places,she would not wander more than 10 ft away.If she is further away than that frm me and cannot get to me, she'll start barking and barking.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jan 5, 2004, 6:39 PM

Post #38 of 66 (6091 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah so ... Smile ... understand ...

You can also use the basic classical & operant conditioning steps (from P McConnell) to help in reducing Hazel's anxiety when she is away from you ... Just modify the steps accordingly ... the same basic structure can be used to recondition, teach, train a whole host of responses ...

Cheers

try this website: http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Jan 5, 2004, 9:59 PM

Post #39 of 66 (6087 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks very much Cool
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jan 6, 2004, 7:16 PM

Post #40 of 66 (6075 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Last night, I came across a passage from "The Cautious Cannine", which might help:

"Another type of conditioning is called Opertant Conditioning, where the animal lears to "operate" on it's environment to get something that he or she likes. I have often used this method to help fearful dogs once they were over the worst of their fears. My little dog, Mist, was terrifierd of unfamiliar dogs. She was also one of those "get them before they ge me" dogs, so I really had a serious problem that had to be treated in my own backyard. Operant conditioning was a part of her treatment program. I taught Mist to look toward the new dog when I said "Where's the dog?", and then gave her a treat each time she looked. After three sessions she'd associate the new dog with good things, and thus became polite."

Cheers Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Jan 6, 2004, 7:34 PM)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Jan 7, 2004, 6:42 AM

Post #41 of 66 (6064 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks!!Smile

For this method, where would the unfamiliar dog be?

Far away,right before my dog would get irritated? Or just enough for her to have a glance & realize the dog is there(slightly irritated)?
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Jan 7, 2004, 8:10 AM

Post #42 of 66 (6062 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
For this method, where would the unfamiliar dog be? Far away,right before my dog would get irritated? Or just enough for her to have a glance & realize the dog is there(slightly irritated)?



Maybe I answer this with a series of questions ... Smile ...

(A) In Operant Conditioning ... we are continually striving to reinforce behaviour with a reward/treat -right?

(B) So, if you wait till Hazel is "irritated" and then give reward/treat ... what behaviour will you be reinforcing?

(C) Given that we wish only to reinforce acceptable or good behaviour ... then, would it not be a good idea to start reinforcing Hazel, when she can see the dog but before Hazel gets anxious and is still comfortable?

P McConnell's step by step method is quite effective ... and sets out clearly the operative elements of classical and operant conditioning ... She has good reason for each of her 6 steps ...

Cheers ... Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Jan 7, 2004, 8:14 AM)


xyne
Doggyman


Apr 9, 2004, 8:59 PM

Post #43 of 66 (5768 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

hi.. i just wanted to recap wat u mentioned about reconditioning the dog.. hazel is fearful?? i dont quite understand...

cos tyson (8yr boxer) is very dominant with other dogs. I try to socialise him but it is hard cos he gets really fierce looking and even if i dont mind.. alot of others will at gatherings n sorts.. so it is a problem.. when he gets in the mood of it, he forgets everything but the target..and seems tat he wants to dominate every single 4 legged frens out there.. it is a problem.. back home, he is very good with other dogs though...
when he is out, he cant stand the sight of any cats or dogs and i can tell he s aggitated n always ready for a fight cos his eyes are focused, his body leans forward n tail is upright... wat i dont understand is why EVERY dog ... big or small.. young or old...

Is this considered aggresive?? cos it only occurs when there r outings.. other than tat, he is quite good.


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Apr 9, 2004, 9:49 PM

Post #44 of 66 (5766 views)
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Re: [xyne, RealityDreamer] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ...

Hazel fearful? ... Hmmm ... from what I have seen of Hazel, I think she is not so much fearful ... I suspect she is probably a anxious/nervous dog and maybe a little high-strung ...

What is the difference? The difference between "fearful" and "anxious" is really an issue of degree ... To me, "fearful", describes a dog that is actually afraid (high level intensity) of new or strange dogs, people and/or things ... While an anxious/nervous dog, merely exhibits anxiety (low level intensity) when faced with a new environment or situation, and does not deal with new situations as well as we would like them too ... A high-strung dog is opposite to a calm dog ...

But RealityDreamer is a good dog owner, and I am sure she will help Hazel along.

Dogs can exhibit different forms of aggression, for different reasons ... there is no one formula to identify an aggressive dog. And one should take care before labelling any dog aggressive. Many dogs can show "signs" of aggression, when they are actually only afraid and would in fact rather run away from the source of fear.

However, that said, a fearful dog can bite as easily as an overtly aggressive dog, so care has to be taken when dealing with both types of dogs.

Is your Tyson (8yr old Boxer) aggressive? ... Cannot say without seeing Tyson. Very often there is more than one reason, for dogs to behave like Tyson ... But whatever Tyson is, from your description, it's apparently only to other dogs (and cats) and not people. That is a good sign.

It is probable that rather than "aggressive", Tyson is a dominant type dog, who has not been sufficiently socialised. He is okay at home because, he has already established his position at home. If a dog has a need to dominate, that need can be indiscriminate, and the dog will want to dominate every other dog regardless of size or age of the other dog.

When Tyson goes out, (a) perhaps because he lacks socialisation skills, the only way he knows how to interact with other dogs is to try and dominate ... and (b) again because he lacks sufficient socialisation skills, ... the only way he knows to establish dominance is by showing threat of aggression ...

Well socialised dogs have many different ways to interract with other dogs, and often they settle the issue of who is top dog by simply using effective dog language without having to resort to growling or snarling ... or threatening to fight.

And you have described your difficult position ... You need to socialise Tyson but because of Tyson's size, looks and current behaviour ... it's hard to find other dog owners who will let their dogs near Tyson. So, how to socialise? ... And if Tyson's behaviour is threatening to other dogs, it becomes even more difficult to socialise ... It's a tough cycle to break.

If you have the inclination, patience and you are prepared to spend the time - you use the method posted above to try and recondition Tyson & minimise threat tendencies ... In your situation, it may be necessary to recondition Tyson first - BEFORE you can effectively socialise him.

Cheers Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Apr 9, 2004, 9:59 PM)


xyne
Doggyman


Apr 9, 2004, 10:16 PM

Post #45 of 66 (5763 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

so far tyson is alright with people, unless he is provoked as boxers are the type that are very self confident and stubborn anyway...

i think u are right about the socialising part,... and its always in him to want to dominate and he isnt making friends while at gatherings.. yes.. it is very hard as i know all other owners will avoid tyson cos of his tendency to cause a fight and his size n looks... i am also afraid he will hurt other dogs...

in your earlier post on reconditioning the dog, it seems Hazel is afraid of others while my tyson inflicts that fear in other dogs.. how do i get him to be more friendly?

The last time i took him to the dogathon he was nightmare... he was so focused on other dogs, even if they were twice his size and wouldnt listen to us..even if he was punished with a pull and a whip with the leash, the attention was shortlived...

Then i tried at K9 day.. he was all the same while approaching the place and seemed overly excited... so we could only tie him to a tree a little further and let him watch how other dogs behaved about.. by then he was partly too tired from the pulling he just lied down n observed around.. Do you think i should slowly introduce him to dogs and walk about instead? Sometimes other dogs can sense his dominance from as far as 10-20ft n would sprint away fr him... most of the dogs would not want to pick a fight with him and he doesnt look like he will give way but he still insists on his way of greeting...UnsurePirate .... would having him even at a distance at such gatherings help him calm down n understand the whole thing better??

sometimes with the pulling he gets his whole neck n chest red as if the veins will burst any moment.. and yet he doesnt seem to bother abt it...
at OB, we are taught when the dog seems to want to snarl n growl, we jerk them and sit them n tell them NO and we r the boss still.. but with him, because of his size and strength.. it is not an easy task especially as he is very stubborn n confident. how do i train with no assistance from other ppl's dogs??


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Apr 9, 2004, 10:32 PM

Post #46 of 66 (5762 views)
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Re: [xyne] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

" ... at OB, we are taught when the dog seems to want to snarl n growl, we jerk them and sit them n tell them NO and we r the boss still ... "

Maybe that method will work with a young dog, or a dog who is relatively socialised and used to training ... but it will probably not work a Boxer with a 8year entrenched behaviour pattern ...

You have to start your reconditioning way way BEFORE attending dog events - and not try and train Tyson during dog events.

When Tyson, who does not have enough socialisation goes to a dog event, with hundreds of dogs around - his senses are on overload - and he has neither time nor inclination to cooperate with you for reconditioning ... If at all, the tugging on his leash and your reprimands under such circumstances, will highten his intensity and possibly irritate him.

Read the postings above for reconditioning carefully ...

Modify the method posted to suit your dog ... the principles are the same. You expose Tyson to other dogs on a gradual and slow basis ... you use operant methods to teach Tyson that it's beneficial, good & rewarding to stay calm and controlled even when other dogs approach ... It will take time ... and lots of patience. You are trying to recondition a 8yr old behaviour.

For the method to be effective, you will need to find another dog owner to help you ... otherwise you will have to rely on chance meetings with other dogs ... and that may be too irregular and unpredictable to be of much use.

Cheers Smile


(This post was edited by surchinmy on Apr 9, 2004, 10:32 PM)


xyne
Doggyman


Apr 9, 2004, 11:24 PM

Post #47 of 66 (5759 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

hmmm.. i think u hit the nail right on the dot.... tyson's behaviour started only after his prev alpha passed away... i dont know if it has anything to do with it.. but he has been this way for the past i'd say 4 yrs.. earlier on, he seems alright.. wouldnt say he becomes best frens with others quick.. more of mind my own business thing...

but i really agree tat perhaps if i can encourage him that greeting dogs on a positive note is rewarding for him, it may be better also.. now..challenge is.. heheheee... finding that 'stranger dog' to practise..... hahahaa.. u have alot of dogs isint it?? heheheee.... ahemmmm... hehehee (just kiddin) ....

but the biggest problem now i see is finding the opportunity to retrain him.. otherwise..how to even begin???

do u think same can apply with CATS??? cos i think the number of strays he's slain is beyond my counting... and it is worrying cos there r neighbours with cats tat r so free to walk in n out all over the place... but i know it is partly his natural behaviour....


(This post was edited by xyne on Apr 9, 2004, 11:27 PM)


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Apr 9, 2004, 11:55 PM

Post #48 of 66 (5755 views)
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Re: [xyne] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure ...can try with cat ... once we know the basics and the principles involved with each method ... the actual training styles are only limited by our imagination ... But how you going to find cat to appear when you want to train??? uh? ...Tongue

Sure you can try with our dogs, but with my schedule ... you can only start training after 11pm at night ... *LOL*...

Smile


xyne
Doggyman


Apr 12, 2004, 6:42 PM

Post #49 of 66 (5735 views)
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Re: [surchinmy] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

heheheee.. yala.. now i am stuck ... back at square one again... hmmm...

i have introduced new dogs to him at my place before.. he seems to be inquisitive and alert on them and does create some tension for the new fren.. but he isnt aggresive... after awhile, he just wants to play...tat is in my home compound.. but funnily, when he is out.. if he sees like more than a few new dogs.. he gets overly excited and it becomes a whole new thing altogether for him...

if i can get him to calm down during gatherings... ya think it'll help??

how does your big dogs play with u?? Do they jump and prance??


surchinmy
Ultra ALPHA

Apr 12, 2004, 7:36 PM

Post #50 of 66 (5732 views)
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Re: [xyne] Dominant Dog [In reply to] Can't Post

You posted: " ... if i can get him to calm down during gatherings... ya think it'll help?? ..."

You can try, but I doubt it will work ... My concern is that, if you try the above (before your dog is properly trained or sufficiently re-conditioned) ... all you are going to teach your dog is that he can ignore you ... and that is a bad habit for your dog to acquire ...

Check the earlier postings ... for effective training and/or reconditioning ... it is best done BEFORE taking your dog to a doggie gathering ... Once you have properly ground what you need to teach your dog - then you can take him to crowded places to REINFORCE what has been trained ...

Our dogs play all sorts of games with us ... retreiving ... hide & seek ... chase & catch ... find the ball/bone etc

Cheers Smile

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