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Al
Novice

Dec 18, 2003, 7:02 AM

Post #26 of 53 (13254 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Chloe:

Thanks again for your warm welcome. I have several dogs and just describing anyone of them may be too lengthy. I do have a website but I don't know if this forum will allow posting such as it might be construed as an advertisement.

Anyway, I have Czech/Slovak/DDR and pure East German GSDs. I likewise have NVBK Mechelaar herders (malinois). I work these dogs in protection, agility, mantracking and obedience where mantracking is more of my favorite activity. I also assist other dog owners in the training of their dogs. As mentioned in my earlier post, I don't train for competition, only reality. I strived to learn and work my dogs that way ever since I held the leash as I find it appropriate due to the deteriorating peace and order situation in our country.

Best regards...

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Dec 18, 2003, 7:13 AM

Post #27 of 53 (13253 views)
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Re: [Al] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi,

You hv great dogs.At the moment,I've just started learning. I'm more into reality training too since I hv been in situations where a PP dog would be of great use to deter unwanted characters.

Could you please e-mail me the URL? My e-mail add is reality69dreamer@yahoo.com.

Thanks in advance.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

Al
Novice

Dec 18, 2003, 8:32 PM

Post #28 of 53 (13245 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hi,

You hv great dogs.At the moment,I've just started learning. I'm more into reality training too since I hv been in situations where a PP dog would be of great use to deter unwanted characters.

Hi Chloe: Well, if you do have a compelling reason to own one.... It does require hard work, dedication, responsibility, maturity and a genetically-correct dog to develop one. Good luck....

PSD
ALPHA

Dec 18, 2003, 9:53 PM

Post #29 of 53 (13242 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

RD,

When I meant full and calm bite I meant it in a way that nothing can pull it out from his mouth. Smile

Noticed you mentioned chew on it. I hope you didnt mean chewy bites as that is a sign of nervousness or being afraid to lose the prey. It can come from paterned training where the dog already knows what you are going to do next and anticipated it. In this case your dog may have benn anticipating you wanting to take away the toy and gets nervous about it therefore the chewing. I have a disclaimer though as I have not seen your dog doing it so what I guess may not be accurate.

In any case, once the bite is as describe above, full and calm, you may have to exchange the release with a piece of good food. Some people will be teaching out from this point but for me I still would not do that as I want my dog to be extreemely high in drive. This is where some opinions differ.

For me I would continue the drive process further without any outs and there will be a stage where he is so high that he will not be willing to release the prey for anything else. That is the time I will teach the outs once and solidly print into the mind of the dog.

As for you, if you are going into protection only and not requiring the dog to be showing extreeme attitude in sporty bite work, then you can teach out earlier when you exchange release of prey for food like you train normal obedience. That should help you.

About when is the time to keep the prey, it is at the highest point where he push the hardest for the prey. If you do that they wont get bored. What you are trying to do is to leave them the high feeling of frustration which will show itself even higher on your next session. So you must learn to increase the criterias set for the dog as he gets stronger in its drive. This is basic theory of training.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

PSD
ALPHA

Dec 18, 2003, 10:02 PM

Post #30 of 53 (13242 views)
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Re: [Al] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Al,

Yeah I had thought you were Al Reanto of AsoniAl Kennel, just wanted to make sure you are actually the man....heheheh. Welcome, good that you are here to share some experience along the way.

About the cases of sports dogs and service dog thingy, well there had been some very heated discussions is many other boards. Nevertheless personally I had thought that this is all a non-issue. Anyway in these 2 discipline, if the aim is correct, both dogs must have the genetics for the work in order to excel in it. So a great dog can either be a sports dog or a service dog depends on what is decided for it by the owner/handler/trainer. I'm sure you will agree with me on this. Smile

Welcome again.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

Al
Novice

Dec 18, 2003, 10:38 PM

Post #31 of 53 (13239 views)
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Re: [PSD] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

About the cases of sports dogs and service dog thingy, well there had been some very heated discussions is many other boards. Nevertheless personally I had thought that this is all a non-issue. Anyway in these 2 discipline, if the aim is correct, both dogs must have the genetics for the work in order to excel in it. So a great dog can either be a sports dog or a service dog depends on what is decided for it by the owner/handler/trainer. I'm sure you will agree with me on this. Smile

Hi PSD:

That's true. Sports vs. Real is indeed a very controversial subject often ending up in heated arguments. I'm not one to argue with anyone as preference is always on the side of the owner/handler, depending on his requirement and the gravity of his requirement.

These modern training concepts has caught fire and is the present rave of many trainers and handlers, save for a few who has, so to speak, "kept the faith". Let me first admit that I am one of the very few who subscribe to this ancient and forgotten discipline, and, if you can promise to keep an open mind, can share with you some of its' insights.

Best regards...

PSD
ALPHA

Dec 19, 2003, 12:27 AM

Post #32 of 53 (13236 views)
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Re: [Al] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Al,

In my mind, many road that will lead to Rome. In this modern world even more like sea and air too.....heheheh. Jokes aside, everyone as you rightly pointed has their own favourites version. Nevertheless, not one way is best for all dogs. An experienced trainer like you will know that every dog is born with their own sets of genetics potential. How much eventually they reach up to the maximum potential all depends on the trainer's and the methods he creatively prescribe.

Surely I can appreciate a good discussion. In the end everyone learns. So just shoot and not worry. Tongue

It will not be an arguement if both side kept on the factual discussion. End of the day it is only such that we can move to greater heights.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

(This post was edited by PSD on Dec 19, 2003, 12:29 AM)

Al
Novice

Dec 19, 2003, 1:26 AM

Post #33 of 53 (13231 views)
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Re: [PSD] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

It will not be an arguement if both side kept on the factual discussion. End of the day it is only such that we can move to greater heights.

Hi PSD:

That makes you a very wise trainer indeed. I like the jokes too.

You're right, not all dogs are created equal, so no one way is best for all dogs. There are dogs good for sports, there are serious dogs with too much character to be sported. With working service, you train for life's emergencies of whatever nature, demanding dogs of good stability that can take high levels of stress with a handler equally skilfull to stabilize his dog under new and real stress and possess good judgement to manage his dog to carry on the work, working under natural elements simulating serious events known or imagined. One classic example is a search and rescue dog, which must be able to carry on its function of saving lives effectively along with its' handler thru total chaos, be it fire, water, smoke, people in panic, hostile terrains and/or a combination of all those. A pup of a good and true working line are normally born,raised and seriously worked while exposed and made comfortable to such elements early in its life to assure a good chance of success in its future work.

Whew!!! Did I bore you with my post? Best regards...

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Dec 19, 2003, 6:33 AM

Post #34 of 53 (13226 views)
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Re: [PSD] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi,

I'm not too sure whether or not it's nervous Crazy

Could you elaborate more on that? Tyson chews as if he's chewing a bone. Hazel chews like Tyson and also as if she's tearing meat off a bone,using her front teeth after she's comfortable. Then when I come to "take" the rag away,she'll hv a full bite and not let go.

But you are definitely right on the patterned training..They know..But usually they would hold the ball..and walk away.

There's one *minor* problem though. When Tyson was younger..when I first got him,he was trained to "let go" whenever I wanted something fr his mouth. Without the command,it would be in his mouth but would not fight much. Unsure

With,he'll just drop it.

"About when is the time to keep the prey, it is at the highest point where he push the hardest for the prey." Do I do this while the toy is with them while their holding it(after a while)? Or after a short session? say after 2-3 mins?
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Dec 19, 2003, 6:35 AM

Post #35 of 53 (13224 views)
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Re: [Al] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks. It will be a while before I own one. Smile

,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

PSD
ALPHA

Dec 19, 2003, 8:23 PM

Post #36 of 53 (13219 views)
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Re: [Al] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Al,

Not to worry. Good dog talks are never boring Smile

. I totally agreed with you. That is why potentials owners must first have a vision of what the wants in a final dog. With that in mind he can chose the puppies with the right traits and socialise them to the environment that we want them to preform in eventually.

BTW tell me more about the dog scenes in Philpines. I heard you guys are pretty active in PP trainings and also SchH. We only wish we are half as advance as you guys in this.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

PSD
ALPHA

Dec 19, 2003, 8:33 PM

Post #37 of 53 (13219 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Chloe,

Good you noticed when they start chewing. The idea is to never give chance for them to chew at all. One way I wouold do is to tie a rope to the rag or tug and once they bite, counter a few times I will let go the prey item but still hold on to the rope. When they pull I hold on, when they counter I let go more line when they dont pull or counter I pull the rope in and shake the item like a live prey trying to get away even when bitten. Once the bites is good then you can down them and teach the out with exchange of food.

Noticed that up to this point I'm still going positive and motivational because your dog is still new to all these.

Ok About the release, When your dog chases the fastest and bites the hardest, just stop everything still holding on to the prey item and when u notice your dog drops his attention just Jerk the ball out of his mouth, let him chase the prey again for once twice(no bite) and the game ends. You can see it in their faces then they will give you the "hey wats up......I want some more you nutty girl....gimme...gimme" look. Tongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

(This post was edited by PSD on Dec 19, 2003, 8:37 PM)

Al
Novice

Dec 19, 2003, 10:05 PM

Post #38 of 53 (13213 views)
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Re: [PSD] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

BTW tell me more about the dog scenes in Philpines. I heard you guys are pretty active in PP trainings and also SchH. We only wish we are half as advance as you guys in this.

Hi PSD:

Dog training in PI has improved significantly compared to a few years back. You'll see more owners involved in dogtraining helping themselves train their own dogs. New dogclubs with varying training styles offer options for dogowners to choose from, mostly in obedience.

SchH in PI is more of the traditional, that is Breed Suitability Test (BST) as it was originally intended. After a year of slump, many are now serious in acquiring their BH. Others train for honest-to-goodness ringsports. Discussions on Sports vs. Real has helped a few realize its difference but sadly, there are still many who trains sports and passes them off as PP dogs. Many are preoccupied with just bitework and rocking the decoy. Agility, tracking and protection are mostly done sportstyle here, save for a few who works not for recognition, trophies or ribbons but only for security and peace of mind. It's a variety.

Best regards...

PSD
ALPHA

Dec 19, 2003, 11:59 PM

Post #39 of 53 (13210 views)
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Re: [Al] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Al,

Can we move over to the new thread on Free Discussion - Protection I just started to keep on track. I think we may have strayed off topic in this thread.
Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Dec 20, 2003, 6:46 AM

Post #40 of 53 (13205 views)
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Re: [PSD] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

ok.got it!

Thanks Smile

,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

GSD
Dog Kichi

Dec 21, 2003, 5:20 AM

Post #41 of 53 (13200 views)
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Re: [Al] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Al,

Wow U have a small kennel facility ?? Great. Any way, welcome.

Steven
Penang Island.

Al
Novice

Dec 21, 2003, 2:22 PM

Post #42 of 53 (13192 views)
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Re: [GSD] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thank you, Steven.

hybridtheory
Novice

Jan 3, 2005, 8:00 PM

Post #43 of 53 (12913 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

if your asking how to train your dog how to bite then i strongly recommend to work with a professional decoy and trainer.

There are plenty of steps you need to take. You also need to have your dog properly evaluated to see if they are capable to do what you need to do.

I can train a labrador or a poodle to bite a sleeve with a full mouth and look good on a Sch field. but whether it will protect you well thats a different story.

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Jan 4, 2005, 8:27 AM

Post #44 of 53 (12888 views)
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Re: [hybridtheory] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello,

Thanks for the advice.

When I posted this question, I was wondering abt my dogs' potential and trying out different things(the basics,not requiring the more "stressful" drives)...giving them the foundation.

I hv 2 dogs at the moment but they are not suitable for protection work. One I am just training for fun using her prey drive which is not great but enough. She however does not have enough defence. The other,he does not hv the nerves to bite but will show signs of aggression towards a threat.I'm not exactly sure if it's out of fear or defence but at the moment,he's what I got and I'm building his confidence. I'll be training him to his fullest potential,maybe up close barking..something like the bark and hold.

I'm still looking around for a serious personal protection dog capable of doing sports work,he/she doesn't have to excel at it but it would be fun if he/she could do that.

P.S. Are u a fan of Linkin Park?
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

hybridtheory
Novice

Jan 4, 2005, 9:36 AM

Post #45 of 53 (12887 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Even though the bite is a part of protection. Its not the most important thing. The most important thing is before and after the bite. Thats where you can read your dog. A golden ret can bite. You can train any dog to bite a sleeve thats not hard. But to maintain fight and keep the dog in civil is what is important.

You would need to have your dog test and worked properly. In the end what you want is a dog that doesnt run. When I work a dog I tell the owners the % of what their dogs can handle as far as threat levels are concern. If its too low then get another dog. But if the owners are serious, we train to make sure that no person would be able to back down their dogs. The dogs will die fighting.

I am a fan of LP. A streetteam member for LP and LPJZ. I am a member of LPU. I met the band 2 weeks ago at a book signing for their new book. Ive been to six concerts. and thats the only band I listen too for the last 3 years. Pretty sad but I just love their music.

In Reply To

Hello,

RealityDreamer
Doggyman

Jan 9, 2005, 5:13 AM

Post #46 of 53 (12860 views)
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Re: [hybridtheory] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello there,

Yes,I agree. Evaluation is always important. Without a foundation,there is no point. Smile

,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)

JoeSmith
K9 Maniac

Jul 4, 2005, 10:44 PM

Post #47 of 53 (12248 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just had some fun time to read all those old posts about BITE.

I could give you one simple evaluation idea. Walk by your dogs with a very new (anything old is fine, but unknown to them and obviously without your smell on it) bag filled with some old cans. Track the bag slowly across the dogs and see how they react.

If scared, timid or not bothered might be a waste of time to try to train for pp works.

Give them a rope or something like this and see if they do the KILL, means shaking vigorously to kill the pray.

If he does not do it then it might be a sign of a �missing gene� and I would not bother to use this dog for pp work.

The rest is training, training and lots of it. Building up stamina, self-confidence and biting power. The latter can be achieved by simply providing your dog with some solid bones to chew on.

K9mon
Novice

Oct 29, 2005, 8:31 PM

Post #48 of 53 (12035 views)
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Re: [JoeSmith] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Chloe,

I've decided to join in after reading some comments posted by PSD, Azman and the other gurus.

I agree 100% of what all the gurus wrote, I just wanted to add one more thing here.

I'm guessing that your puppy is around 11 weeks, if so try not to work too hard on him.

I have learned from experience that the more you train the result can be less effective.

Btw your puppy looks nice from the picture. May I ask if this pup is from the Eros Mohnwise bloodline?

Thanks.

Pommymom
Novice

Apr 19, 2008, 12:20 AM

Post #49 of 53 (11281 views)
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Re: [PSD] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dear PSD,

I have been reading all the old postings on BITE forum. I am also interested in PP dog work. However I am new and would like to own a PP dog and involve in dogsport. May I know if a mixed breed have the possibility to excel in protection or dogsport given the training? Or do I need to get a working line dog to do this? In fact I have never seen a mixed breed in PP work before. As in my avatar, I have a lab/dalmatian mixed dog.

Thank you.

Stella

acsyen
Ultra ALPHA

Apr 22, 2008, 9:28 PM

Post #50 of 53 (11115 views)
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Re: [Pommymom] Bite [In reply to]	Can't Post

it is possible.. maybe you have not seen it but there are people who train mix breeds if their temperament and characteristics are suitable. Maybe you can check with 'Reality Dreamer' another forum member on this.

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