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Home: Dog Sports, Schutzhund, Protection, Tracking,.....: Schutzhund & Protection Dogs:
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Kowpa
Member

Oct 16, 2003, 12:19 AM

Post #176 of 251 (5964 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

What do u mean by real protection and sport dogs? Me confuse! help some one


mhazman
Member

Oct 16, 2003, 1:40 AM

Post #177 of 251 (5950 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kowpa,

Sport dogs - Dogs trained in tracking,obedience and protection for titles e.g Schutzhund, SVV,ZVV,ringsport...

Personal/family protection dogs - Dogs trained for real life threatening events to his handler/family/property.


Some dogs can do both , some only one and a lot of dogs today failed both, although they look great. If they are good at both then, they are normally good PSH/PSD
I'm trying to keep it simple.Hope its helpful.

rgds

Azman


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 1:44 AM

Post #178 of 251 (5949 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Kowpa,

No ! I'm not a ScH trainer.....just have been doing some reading into it lately !

Quote :

"schutzhund means protection dog so the propose of schutzhund is protection is that wat u mean? "
======================================================


Like I have said earlier, Sch was developed as a mean/tool used to evaluate a dog's breeding potential , supposedly only GSD with the desire working drv are used in GSD breeding program !

In any case dog's that did well in ScH has the potential to be trained as personal protection dog or police dog but must undergo some re-training 1st ! As I'm not too familiar wt PPD ,maybe others on board will be able to offer some in-sight into this.



Quote:

"Prey drive is inborn,
Do u mean that every dogs definately have this kind of drive the prey drive the crazy drive! But I have seen dogs not interested in chasing a running ball? Is it that he is not born with this kind of drive? If this drive can be trained will this dog be a future schutzhund? "

=====================================================

NOT every dog's prey drv is the same, it depends on the individual dog genetic make-up. And yes some dogs have very little or no prey drv at all so it will be much difficult to train this dog. But like wht the author mentioned, if the dog has resonable prey drv, it can be improved or reduced to a certain degree depending on how we trained / play wt our dog. As PSD has mentioned in earlier post, training for ScH purely in prey drv is not a good way as it will lack intensity & aggression (aggression in this case is not a random aggression but controlled aggression brought out against the "helper" or "assailant", a dog's must have courage to do this !)



Quote:

"A dog being provoke and out of fear he bites is this considered defense drive ?"

No this definitely not defense drv, I will call this a weak nerve or shy dog that bite out of fear (Fear biter). Normally a strong nerved dog will turn on its defense drv only when provoked , such as raising its hair at the back of its neck, it's lip will curl back showing its teeth & Barking to warn the would be assailant to back-off , "if not I'm gonna bite ur A@s"



Quote:

Aggression Drive - Do u need this kind of drive in the schutzhund?

Yes, IMO definitely ! I want to see that kind of "intensity" in my dog , who will stand its ground & take down the assailant when under attacked or take down a criminal suspect in the case of a police K9 ! !


Quote :

Fighting Drive - The fundamental component of fighting drive is the active part of the aggressive drive, social aggression. Therefore, the dog must always see the helper as a rival. In this case schutzhund are very dangerous? Don't u think so?

I believe U do not understand ScH very well ! Like what one member told me earlier, Schutzhund is all about "Control & Discpline" a properly trained ScH dog when not in action is a very calm house dog , very obedience & social dog (aloof but not agressive towards strangers) and most importantly as well a very stable dog incl around children !

therefore in this case, the "Fight drv" is only turn on when doing the ScH protection exercise & only when under provocation by the "helper" but is under controlled at other time !

Let me reiterate one more time of wht have been mentioned earlier, ScH training is about controlling & channelling ur dog's working drv & it is used as a tools to evaluate the dog's potential.

So tell me if without the desired working drv wht good is the GSD then !

Wink ..! !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 16, 2003, 2:04 AM

Post #179 of 251 (5947 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

This is too much for me at this moment...
I was "attracted" to this thread, so here I am... reading... digesting... NO, Trying hard to digest but find it hard to join in your discussions!!!
learned a lot but also learn nothing coz I don't really get the FACTS planted in my brain. Isn't it this thread the most informative and .... most thought provoking?? Well~ at least i took my very first chance to pat on a GSD last weekend. I cant deny... I'm amazed by HIM. What a wonderful GSD, and it's not FIERCE at all!Shocked too bad... GSD without a pair of droopy ears and no-dumdum-look.... Guess some of you know my taste in dogs huh?~CoolTongue

Enjoy~Smile


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 3:53 AM

Post #180 of 251 (5942 views)
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Re: [colinchin,mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

hi Guys,


Quote:
""Real protection requires a high degree of defense, fight and civil drives in a dog. Sport dogs having them can be trained in civil agitation, hidden sleeve,muzzlework and body bites.""
=====================================
Yes ! Wink , and if I'm not mistaken , PPD must be trained for in quite a no. of different scenario & situation so as to condition it to protect its owner & family in any environment !

So Azman, how's Amor progressing, do U still test/trained him @ ur fren kennel ? ? I'm asking this b'coz I was wondering whether PPD needs to be test or train regularly to ensure they will not forget their training ? ? Tongue

BTW guys....did U know "AKC" just held their 1st ever ScH trial....! Shocked . . . ! Well I'm truly shocked & surprised ! ! but glad, at the same time ! Laugh

maybe our local k9 org could take a leaf out them , .... well I guess we just have to keep our fingers crossed ! Cool






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 16, 2003, 4:14 AM)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 4:11 AM

Post #181 of 251 (5945 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ,

I'm glad u can join us here !

Dun worry too much abt the discussion here, like U , I'm also trying to digest some of the info here ! Wink

He he he ! .... U smitten with a GSD alredi, ! Laugh
Maybe can make a convert out of U after all ! !SlySly .... Aiyo, GSD also dum-dum looking la, at least mine is ! TongueBlush

BTW....U haven't tell me abt ur new pup la....! !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 16, 2003, 8:40 AM

Post #182 of 251 (5938 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Have u ever experience the spirit of schutzhund?


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 3:35 PM

Post #183 of 251 (5934 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Kowpa ,

Have U ever seen a ScH Club / Competition in M'sia ? ? ? Crazy


But then hopefully we will in the near future ! ! Cool






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 16, 2003, 3:38 PM)


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 16, 2003, 4:59 PM

Post #184 of 251 (5929 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

My new pup??? Check my profile, written there~Tongue
Of course, NOT a GSD~


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


mhazman
Member

Oct 16, 2003, 7:11 PM

Post #185 of 251 (5923 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

Qoute:
"So Azman, how's Amor progressing, do U still test/trained him @ ur fren kennel ? ? I'm asking this b'coz I was wondering whether PPD needs to be test or train regularly to ensure they will not forget their training ? ? "

Amor's protection is fine for me . he bites the sleeve and body. I'm doing e collar training with him now to improve on the reliability of the commands. There were some attempts before to break into my compound and I let the dogs handle them. Its a kind of free agitation.. kindaa.

I'm trying to set up some hundensport equipment to train my dogs at home. Maybe there are people interested to train together. Who knows we can do some foundation work in Schutzhund..

Azman


prodog
Novice

Oct 16, 2003, 8:21 PM

Post #186 of 251 (5917 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi guys,

Absolutely great to find so many into working dogs and their training. Will not be too long before we have our 1st Schutzhund club, I think.

I'm interested in taking up your offer in training together, Azman. I've got a Dobe and a GSD btw and we're doing some drive, focus and grip work at the moment. Got some equipment of my own (no bite suit though to take body bites from your Amor).

It would be great to meet up.

Prodog


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 16, 2003, 8:36 PM

Post #187 of 251 (5912 views)
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Re: [prodog] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

I wanna join too!!
Can i be a GSD trainer if i'm not a GSD keeper?Tongue


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 8:43 PM

Post #188 of 251 (5908 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ,

I would luv to see U as a decoy . . . . ! ! LaughLaugh Blush !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 16, 2003, 8:46 PM

Post #189 of 251 (5904 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue

I'm soon to be a beagle trainer, wish me good luck then!Angelic

by the way~ how long is the life span for GSD? 12?


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 9:01 PM

Post #190 of 251 (5900 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

Quote :

"There were some attempts before to break into my compound and I let the dogs handle them. Its a kind of free agitation.. kindaa."

Maybe next time U can put up my addr outside ur compound.....this way my dog also get free decoy & agitation...Tongue....he he he ...! LaughLaugh ! BTW can U describe the look on their face.....! !LaughLaugh ..... Shocked



Quote :

"I'm trying to set up some hundensport equipment to train my dogs at home. Maybe there are people interested to train together. Who knows we can do some foundation work in Schutzhund.."
If got chance, I definitely wanna train together.... but too bad I'm in Jhr Unsure, maybe KL folks can start a small club or something for a start. . . then when the opportunity arises, I will join U guys....hey !.. I'll even get Colin to tag along....he he he ! ! Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 9:07 PM

Post #191 of 251 (5897 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

 ,

So that is ur new pup hah....! ! Laugh Aiyo...why keep me in suspense so long ? ? Cool

Maybe...for a start U can join Azman for some ScH Obedience & tracking training wt him la !.... Wink

after that U can be his Amor's ...Decoy...! ! LOL .. .LaughLaughLaugh



BTW ....yes I thk a GSD avg life span is abt 12 yrs ! !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 16, 2003, 9:11 PM)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 16, 2003, 11:45 PM

Post #192 of 251 (5885 views)
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Re: [Kowpa,Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear Kowpa, Pollux,

I had seen that there has been very interesting postings here between both of you. Just would like to add some opinions on these so that things can be better understood.

Aggression Drive and Active aggression, is a very misunderstood thing in todays training. I am not about go against Helmut Reiser in his book on this drive he mentioned but todays training had evolved a lot from his methods which was revolutionary in his time into clearer definition of drives in a dog. before I go to the simplified version of drives, I would like to emphasise more on the Aggression drive.

Aggression drive is much related to survival drive. In the wild, when there is a confrontation, a dog will not straight rush into a fight. This simply does not happen. What instead will happen is that the dog will show teeth, growl, deep continuous bark, raise hackles, stare into direct eye contact, move slowly forward but still keep the distance. These acts are designed to scare away the threat. Confrontation does not usually happen as both predator will not want to risk being injured. Injured predator in the wild means a dead predator. Therefore with this in mind, a dog working in aggression drive will more likely flee from a confrontation than bite. Unless he is cornered or tied to a situation that he cannot go anywhere else and had no choice but to bite as last option of a survival drive.

Today, methods of SchH training since Helmut Reiser revolutionary training book had become so much more easier to be applied where Aggression drive is still needed but is only used as an intermediary to transfer prey drived dog into a fight drive (some call it active aggression) Therefore today, the world of SchH training generally accepts that prey drive, defense drive and fight drive are the needed drives to produce a SchH dog.

As to Aggression drive = dangerous dog, I do not think so because aggression drive is part of a survival drive. For simple explanation, dog will only be in survival mode if there is a stimulus that threats it. Then when the dog acted in aggression drive, it starts as a warning that keep your distance or I will bite. When threats is no more, then it is over and nothing happens.

Personally, I feel that the mere word "Aggression" itself is not a good term to use correctly in today's world. I would preferably call it "defense drive" to be more appropriate, accepted in todays SchH world and easier to understand.

Also SchH dog = Dangerous dog, no way as although we eventually channel the dog from Prey using dfense drive into fight, a SchH dog does not act if there is no Stimuli (the helper) and presence of a prey (the sleeve) because of conditioning. SchH dog or people call sports dog in degrading terms are not poor nerved dogs or dogs that cannot do protection in real life. These dogs are tested in all its drives and control phases to show that it is a true working dog and can be breed surveyed and bread. These dogs has all it takes to perform as a high level PSD,PPD and such. The only thing as pollux also mentioned, these dogs needs some retraining off the sleeve for them to bite in real life. So a Sports dog is not dangerous to the public.

However a top SchH dog like the top 10 in BSP will never be a PSD nor PPD fulltime. Reason being they are very sought after dogs to remain in the sports and sports pays better than PPD or PSD. There is nothing that says a PPD,PSD,SchH dogs are more better than the other. Each dog have to be valued as an individual based on its own attitude, inborn and polished drives and the kind of training it gets. What I'm trying to say is, top PPD, top PSD and top ScHH dogs are very hard to tell apart when they work in those 3 drives in their respective work. The only difference is human greed......best dogs usually goes to sports where it pays better.......Pirate I will let you all ponder on this.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 17, 2003, 3:24 AM

Post #193 of 251 (5870 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Totally agree wt U when U mentioned that aggression drv is the most misunderstood word in the K9 world. Unsure

To me, aggression drv is an interaction & extension of both a dog's prey & defense drv (just like fight drv) borne out of a need to survive. U gave a good example of when a dog during confrontation will turn on its aggression drv to protect itself, these I believe is more an extension of defense drv (more def & less prey). But in the wild, when dogs need to hunt & fight for food, they will turn on their aggression drv but in this case it will be more of prey drv & less of defense drv.

So basically wht we r talking abt here is dogs turning on its aggression drv as part of its survival instinct (but vary in mode depending on its needs or situation it is in ! ). Therefore in ScH protection routine (where aggression drv is always under control) I would like to see Seriousness (intensity) during the B+H exercise and also seriousness in wanting to detain (possess) the assailant during the run-away....Wink.....! !

Maybe we should not use the term "aggression" as Drv but should refer it as a "mean/tool" by dog to survive and to achieve success in a number of types of confrontations....! ! Wink

So as U mentioned in ur post, wht we need in the world of ScH training,...is basically the 3 important drv which is the balance of Prey & Defense drv, followed by Fight drv (Courage & Nerve)

What do u think...? ? ? Smile



Quote: "best dogs usually goes to sports where it pays better......."

NO...la , I thk being a show dog pay the best...la...Tongue .....no stress la ! give ur best flying trot in the ring and next thing U know U could the ....Champ.....he he he ....Laugh Laugh ! ! ......






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 17, 2003, 3:27 AM)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 17, 2003, 7:24 PM

Post #194 of 251 (5859 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,


Quote
To me, aggression drv is an interaction & extension of both a dog's prey & defense drv (just like fight drv) borne out of a need to survive.

All drives are related to survival drives. Of these in SchH protection, Fight drive is the most unatural drive in the dog as in the wild the dog will not "gung-Ho" rush into a fight and risk injury as this would mean that it is against the survival instinct. This is why training SchH is so challenging where we are trying to bring out the fight drive channelling them using prey and defense under a series of confidence building. Actually my earlier feeble attempt was to divert this forum away from getting confused with aggression drive. Can we start changing this term into Defense Drive to be easier to understand?Smile

Quote
But in the wild, when dogs need to hunt & fight for food, they will turn on their aggression drv but in this case it will be more of prey drv & less of defense drv.

if hunt for food then it will be prey totally. In prey he is very motivated with no stress. Prey encompass chasing, carrying, retriving, tracking, trailing, pulling to them, pouncing, shaking to death action. Fight for food (against another predator) is defense drive.


Quote
Therefore in ScH protection routine (where aggression drv is always under control) I would like to see Seriousness (intensity) during the B+H exercise and also seriousness in wanting to detain (possess) the assailant during the run-away....Wink.....! !

The seriousness you mentioned in B&H (bark and Hold) is defence channeling into Fight drive. This is different from a prey bark where the dog will just yip..yip..yip..... But the seriousness when the assailant run away is PREY drive. Therefore the word "seriousness" between the 2 different excercise means 2 different thing do you see?

Quote
So as U mentioned in ur post, wht we need in the world of ScH training,...is basically the 3 important drv which is the balance of Prey & Defense drv, followed by Fight drv (Courage & Nerve)

I forgot to add, we need food drive too. Otherwise very challenging to train the tracking without food drive. Also flashy OB needs to be started with food and then prey items later. I like to use both as it gives me more combinations to work with. Nevertheless, Polluxx, many people complain to me we go too deep already they all read and sees stars liao......and dared not even write anything here.....lol......dear ppl, don be afraid, sincere questions will be appreciated if you do not understand any part.Tongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 17, 2003, 7:24 PM

Post #195 of 251 (5859 views)
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Re: [PSD, Kowpa, Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep going on..... I'm reading. Wink
but digesting like a (cow).... (keep the food for later)Blush


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


Kowpa
Member

Oct 17, 2003, 8:21 PM

Post #196 of 251 (5847 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD

your thread are very impressive U should be the future Malaysan speaker. My salute to u. If everyone can explain like u I think everyone will come to enjoy this sport. Why we are backward in this kind of sport (the schutzhund) everyone thinking that schutzhund dogs are a killer's dog. But in fact schutzhund is totally different from persnoal protection am I right?

Schutzhund is a sport and is intended to demostrate the dog's intelligence and utility. As working trial, schutzhund measures the dog's mental stability, ability to scent, willingness to work, endurance structural efficiency, courage and trainability. Correct?

Schutzhund is not meant to be personal protection training although the skills are similar to those taught to police K-9s an security and protection dogs. While not a test for police or personal protection dogs, many schutzhund dogs are later converted to one of these applications. Correct?

Quote:

This is why training SchH is so challenging where we are trying to bring out the fight drive channelling them using prey and defense under a series of confidence building.

So use this formula Prey + Defense = Fight boleh kah? hehee


Kowpa
Member

Oct 17, 2003, 9:08 PM

Post #197 of 251 (5843 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

In reality there are no competition or schutzhund club in Malaysia.

But for your info there are schutzhund enthusiast like u in Taiping with people from Penang, Ipoh, Bangkok, Kangar, and Germany, 2 honkies was to come in August this year but was held back - doing the training with experience and zero dogs and holding fun competitions like the world competitors competing for almost 11/2 years. Can this considered a competition in Malaysia?

At this time schutzhund club almost comes up if the can come to compromise. But due to unforseen circumstances the training stop just 4 months ago.


prodog
Novice

Oct 17, 2003, 11:39 PM

Post #198 of 251 (5835 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ,

You're more than welcome to join me.


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 18, 2003, 2:48 AM

Post #199 of 251 (5829 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Kowpa,

Paiseh! Dont mean to act like an expert but if see something that can be better explained then have to say something loh! Hope that people dont get more pening than they already are....heheheh!


Quote

Why we are backward in this kind of sport (the schutzhund) everyone thinking that schutzhund dogs are a killer's dog. But in fact schutzhund is totally different from persnoal protection am I right?


I think you are right.


Quote
Schutzhund is a sport and is intended to demostrate the dog's intelligence and utility. As working trial, schutzhund measures the dog's mental stability, ability to scent, willingness to work, endurance structural efficiency, courage and trainability. Correct?


Couldn't be better put.


Quote
Schutzhund is not meant to be personal protection training although the skills are similar to those taught to police K-9s an security and protection dogs. While not a test for police or personal protection dogs, many schutzhund dogs are later converted to one of these applications. Correct?


Yes these are the basis of what all GSD's are all about. A dog successful in SchH using the correct way of teaching and utilising the dogs correct drives and function plus having the correct nerves and temprement will enable the dog to serve as service dog in any of those categories you mentioned. However, since SchH training itself takes a long time, for Police Dogs, they usually start a dog into a different training program altogether so that the dogs have a longer service age...be it for patrol and apprehension or sniffer dogs. It is not unknown that low scoring SchH dogs are also converted into service dogs too as they cannot do much in the highly competitive sports. However these dogs are not bad dogs, they are just not top competition dogs.


Quote
So use this formula Prey + Defense = Fight boleh kah? hehee


I would put it this way

Prey+Defense+confidence building(experience)=fight drive

Since fight drive is the most unatural drive for a dog in the wild. Therefore to bring out the fight drive so that it comes all the time on the job needs a lot of confidence added into the dog training program. In other the dog always wins the fight against the helper. It is a saying however that if a dog that has no genetics in it will never have any fight drive to start with therefore no way to bring out something that is never there. So If I may add that the best of trainers can only train a dog to its genetics best and nothing more.......screwed up trainers though will just destroy those best genetics and render the dog into a nin-com-poop!Tongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 18, 2003, 3:45 AM

Post #200 of 251 (5825 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Kowpa,


Quote:
"But for your info there are schutzhund enthusiast like u in Taiping with people from Penang, Ipoh, Bangkok, Kangar, and Germany, 2 honkies was to come in August this year but was held back - doing the training with experience and zero dogs and holding fun competitions like the world competitors competing for almost 11/2 years.""
=====================================
So what happened ? ? Unimpressed...r they still around ! ! maybe U guys can come up wt something like starting a informal Sch training session & at the same time getting more ppl to join ! ! Smile


Quote :
""Can this considered a competition in Malaysia?""
====================================
Well why not !, I guess the spirit of ScH is not only limited in competition but also during the training session U share wt ur fellow trainee as well rite ! Tongue



Quote :
""At this time schutzhund club almost comes up if the can come to compromise. But due to unforseen circumstances the training stop just 4 months ago""
=====================================
So what happened ? ? even if MKA can stopped the forming of ScH club.....why did they stopped training ? ? I meant they can train on their own rite...we dun need MKA for that ...! ! so what really happened ? I'm most curious ! ! Shocked
Maybe U can e-mail me at :



Quote:

This is why training ScH is so challenging where we are trying to bring out the fight drive channelling them using prey and defense under a series of confidence building.
===================================
It looks like U pick-up ScH very well, better & faster than me ... I would say ! ! Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)

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