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German Shepherd







stanleywong
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Dec 20, 2002, 1:29 AM

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GSD


(This post was edited by Khoobg on Oct 18, 2003, 8:22 AM)


bosco
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Jan 2, 2003, 7:50 AM

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Re: [stanleywong] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ! we just got a 8 week old GSD "Bosco"

he is a hand full,,any important suggestion for this breed of dog?? i used to have one when i was 14,,,but turn out to be bad experience,,we did not know the importantce of socialization,,when he reached 1 year old he had hardley meet any people or dogs,,,and was very aggressif by fear...by 4 yrs old we took the decision to put him down for i felt i could not control him,,,,,hardest thing i ever had to do in my life even t'ill this day,,,,with bosco i am trying a much as possible to let him see the world,,and people,"So far going well" but I am still very fearfull that history might repeat...


stanleywong
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Jan 2, 2003, 6:21 PM

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stanleywong
Novice

Jan 2, 2003, 6:32 PM

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Re: [bosco] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

hi congra to have a 8 weeks old puppy. i'm sorry of your bad experience of having a fear gsd b4, actually all dogs are having different character, so don't worry it is not goin to happen again! i suggest u start to bring him out to meet more people after 3 months , because the puppy has the period of fear during 8 to 10 weeks sometimes latter, also puppy should not have too many socialization when he is too young.

anyway gsd is not too difficult to look after , if u really love him!! good luck

stanley


Khoobg
Webmaster


Jan 3, 2003, 7:45 AM

Post #5 of 251 (13645 views)
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Re: [bosco] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, socialization is the key.

Recently we had a gathering where some 30 dogs of all breeds had a chance to meet each other and socialize. All the dogs except one happily meet each other and a lot of them were able to go off leash. No barking or fighting. The one that had problem is a Great Dane that has not met much dogs during her life so far and has to be tied to a pole and keep on barking. As long as you continue to socialize your GSD with other Human and other Canine, you will not likely to end up with the same problem with Bosco.


Dog Obedience and Agility - http://www.puppy.com.my/ob/
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neurotoxicz
Dog Kichi

Apr 11, 2003, 3:31 AM

Post #6 of 251 (13461 views)
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German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

CoolGreetings.



I'm going to get a GSD soon hopefully if i can find a suitable one that's bout 2 months old and then also a suitable price but that's not the point.

I want to ask from you experienced people.As you can see in my other posts(though no one has replied to them, ...Frown) I have other dogs too[one local dog,2 terriers and a Dachshund].I have a few things to ask....

1) Will the dogs fight?I'm sure the big dog (local) will fight for leadership with GSD since they are bigger breeds.

2)One question that has been running in my head all this while is socialization.Yes.You must socialize your dog like what they say in books and many of you BUT what if there are intruders in my house?The main purpose of a GSD in my house is to guard my house at night.If it's too friendly with people it's useless at home!What's the point if you have a useless guard dog that wags its tail at other people when the person is an intruder???...

3)My local dogs and other dogs are not trained so if i train my GSD,will the other dogs give bad influence to my GSD not to listen to my commands because i'm planning to train my GSD really well and i hope i can succeed.Smile

4)I'm going to let the GSD and local dog out at night so how do i introduce them or make them not fight or cause trouble at night?



I hope all my questions can be answered and dilemmas cleared.I'm sure many of the members in puppy.com have priceless advice and experience.Thanks and thank you for your time.Wink


mhazman
Member

Apr 11, 2003, 5:07 PM

Post #7 of 251 (13458 views)
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Re: [neurotoxicz] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's my 2 cts. worth...

1.If your local big dog is the dominant one your future puppy should be able to respect the peck order until its big enough to challenge that. But if you train and socialize the puppy well, it will grow into an obedient, social and a guard dog as well.
2.Good guard dogs should be protective of its area or handler and wary of strangers. They need a considerable level of defense drive to work effectively
and defense is in the genes, Not trainable... So get the right dog/puppy and you have a good start..
3. That depends on how well its trained on distractions.
4. If they are raised together (not dog aggressive)and respect the peck order with you at the top then its quite safe except when there's a female in heat.!!!
And that's my advice to you. Others may want to differ.

Rgds
Mhazman


neurotoxicz
Dog Kichi

Apr 12, 2003, 2:19 AM

Post #8 of 251 (13451 views)
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Re: [mhazman] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the advice.Can i have more advice from other people?The more the better.Thanks.
[~*~NeuR0ToxiCz~*~]


airdrigh
Novice

Sep 11, 2003, 7:48 AM

Post #9 of 251 (13151 views)
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Re: [neurotoxicz] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, I have 2 GSD's and one dobermann who is about 15 months old. When I first brought back the dobermann, I had to keep the male GSD tied up, but slowly can let the puppy go near the dominant dog, but you must always be there to supervise and get ready to protect the pup in case the dominant dog attacks the pup. Up until today my dominant GSD still bullies the dobermann but all I need to do is say a loud NO and the GSd will stop and walk away. You have to be fierce and teach the dominant dog who is boss.

depending on the line, you must try to get a reputable breeder so that the pups are more or less garanteed to have good tempremant. But usually with some effort and training, any dog can grow up to be sociable and have good temprament, just that some breeds are more easily trained than others. The other thing is guard dogs usually know their territory and will look to their masters for signals so when you bring it out to play and socialise, if you are friendly to everybody and allow children and adults to pat it, then it will know how to behave itself, but when you go back to your house, it will automatically go back to guard dog mode and guard its territory. That's the beauty of GSD's or any guard dogs, it know's its territory and is able to differentiate being friendly and beaing protective.

Hope this helps.


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Sep 11, 2003, 9:23 PM

Post #10 of 251 (13142 views)
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Re: [airdrigh] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

very well said =)

"That's the beauty of GSD's or any guard dogs, it knows its territory and is able to differentiate being friendly and being protective."

like that comment
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



PSD
ALPHA


Sep 17, 2003, 10:33 PM

Post #11 of 251 (13105 views)
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Re: [bosco] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hi ! we just got a 8 week old GSD "Bosco"

he is a hand full,,any important suggestion for this breed of dog?? i used to have one when i was 14,,,but turn out to be bad experience,,we did not know the importantce of socialization,,when he reached 1 year old he had hardley meet any people or dogs,,,and was very aggressif by fear...by 4 yrs old we took the decision to put him down for i felt i could not control him,,,,,hardest thing i ever had to do in my life even t'ill this day,,,,with bosco i am trying a much as possible to let him see the world,,and people,"So far going well" but I am still very fearfull that history might repeat...


Bosco,

What you mentioned here is nerve problem. Although socialisation is very important, a good tempremented GSD will not show such insecurities. Unfortunately an extreemely very high percentage of show GSD you see today in the show rings today have got their temprement bread out of the line. Therefore This "show GSD's are totally a different breed altogether and different from the original German Shepherd breed which is bread for Courage, Temprement, good hips and high immunities.

My advice if you would take it, if you are looking for a campanion whom you want to share happiness with. Test the temprement throughlly from puppy before you buy. This way you won't have to worry of history repeating itself.....of course you are still responsible to socialise the hell outof him Laugh

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 18, 2003, 5:14 AM

Post #12 of 251 (13098 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD ,

Just curious does PSD = "Police Service Dog"..!

BTW great advice ! Smile, wht u say its true....it is not only just environmental which shapes the dog temperament....but the genetic factor plays a very-very big part as well.

As an example , it is very hard to socialise a genetically shy/skitish GSD...it will never develop the confident required in a strange place or with a lot of strangers around.

A shy/skitish dog turn on their defence drv easily even when not in threatening situation such as strangers walking nearby, it will display treatening posture such as barking with hair rising on the back of their neck....etc..)

here's my 2 cents worth when choosing a puppy especially a working breed such as GSD, look for the confident & the outgoing one (especially the one who willing to retrieve naturally)... the aloofness & hardness will come later when the dog mature.

Here's an excerpt of the FCI GSD-standard for temperament :
"sound nerves, alertness, sound-confidence, trainability, watchfulness, loyalty & incorruptibilty as well as courage, fighting drv and hardness are the outstanding characteristic of the GSD which makes him such a superior working dog for guard, companion, protection & herding dog." Cool

How we wish that all breeder, judge & GSD lovers alike will look for this attributes when looking for a winner in a show . .! ! ! . . Unsure

Socialization & puppy imprinting at an early age is still a very important step in turning out a good temperament GSD.

BTW do u own a GSD.....? .. which line.. ? ? just curious ! ....Blush






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 18, 2003, 6:53 PM

Post #13 of 251 (13093 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hi PSD ,

Just curious does PSD = "Police Service Dog"..!


Sly Right you are.


In Reply To
BTW great advice ! Smile, wht u say its true....it is not only just environmental which shapes the dog temperament....but the genetic factor plays a very-very big part as well.

As an example , it is very hard to socialise a genetically shy/skitish GSD...it will never develop the confident required in a strange place or with a lot of strangers around.


I will never even start with a weak nerved puppy in the first place and they never should be breed again no matter how nice they are. This is the cause of genetic pool degration.


In Reply To
here's my 2 cents worth when choosing a puppy especially a working breed such as GSD, look for the confident & the outgoing one (especially the one who willing to retrieve naturally)... the aloofness & hardness will come later when the dog mature.

Here's an excerpt of the FCI GSD-standard for temperament :
"sound nerves, alertness, sound-confidence, trainability, watchfulness, loyalty & incorruptibilty as well as courage, fighting drv and hardness are the outstanding characteristic of the GSD which makes him such a superior working dog for guard, companion, protection & herding dog." Cool


I noticed you mentioned retrive naturally.....look like someone in the sport I see. Need I say more?Smile


In Reply To
How we wish that all breeder, judge & GSD lovers alike will look for this attributes when looking for a winner in a show . .! ! ! . . Unsure


You mean in the show ring? I think its already too late. Even the german show ring dogs having a so called strict requirement on breeding does not produce the ability of what GSD is originally bread for.


In Reply To
Socialization & puppy imprinting at an early age is still a very important step in turning out a good temperament GSD.


Yes but only if you start with a correct puppy that has the right genetics. Socialising and inprinting can only bring up the puppy to its genetics best. In other words a fear biter will still be a fear biter and no best trainer in the world will be able to change that. Having said that, we have to remember also that the best puppy with the best genetics will still go to waste in the wrong hands as well.


In Reply To
BTW do u own a GSD.....? .. which line.. ? ? just curious ! ....Blush


You want me to say more? Tongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 18, 2003, 9:13 PM

Post #14 of 251 (13083 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

FrownHi PSD,

Yup ! I would like to know more....Wink

Quote :

"I will never even start with a weak nerved puppy in the first place and they never should be breed again no matter how nice they are. This is the cause of genetic pool degration."

Do u think the current situation in the showline (SV) is due to the reign of the Martin bros ..? ? ? ...........Genetic bottleneck .....! !

- I read in other forum that the German Police has stopped performing in SV show in recent yrs......Unsure...I understand they used to perform regularly@ SV Sieger show but due to SV empasis on conformation more than temperament & working drv......they decided to pull out.

It will be a sad day indeed for GSD IF they r not more used by the police force in the future.....Unsure...! !

BTW I m not into sports...coz there is no Sch Club in M'sia as far as I know....but I owned a working line GSD (DDR+BDR). Just training him on my own using training tapes (B. Flinks)......not very successful I would say...Frown....well just gotta keep on trying.....Laugh..! !

So wht abt u, r u from the Police Force (Malaysia or foreign)...?






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 18, 2003, 9:48 PM

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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Poluxx,

I think you already know about the old line working GSD and the show dogs. I'd rather not comment too much about this here lest I may land in hot soup with some people.

Flink's is an excellent trainer. How old is your dog and who is the sire and dam? You should work him on a prey item to intensify it and graduate it onto a bite tug and then onto sleeve. Then once it is sleeve crazy you will need someone else to train for the defense.

Eventhough there is no SchH clubs ...yet! You should continue to work your dog this way. Having a good prey does not do harm and its nice to play fetch in the park too.Smile

When eventually there is enough people to start SchH clubs, at least your dog already have some basics.

DDR's Sly you amuse me. Now I know there is hope yet still for the real GSD in Malaysia.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 19, 2003, 5:20 AM

Post #16 of 251 (13064 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

When u mentioned the old working line....? wht do mean ... when do u start differentiate between old & new working line..? at least as far as I know...back in the 60s, even early 70s and before...there isn't much difference between working line & highline . . . . they r almost the same..!
Imagine if we can have another VA dogs like Bernd or Bodo v Lierberg...now....! Angelic...WOW...! !

Yup , Flinks is a really trainer . . . I m just doing Drv Focus & Grip for now . . . .but I dun think I'll be doing any defence drv though . . . .its extremely hard to get a "helper" here in M'sia let alone a good one. He is 9 months old rite now.

Quote : "DDR's Sly you amuse me"

Why..?? Shocked...well anyway his sire is of Lord's bloodline thru Blek E. I know DDR line is not too tough(hard) as compare say Czech or even BDR dog like Mink.....but for an inexperience guy like me DDR will do just nicely....I also happen to like their darker pigment, strong bone & blocky head.Tongue Anyway the dam is out of Asko vd Lutter , so hopefully will bring out the working drv at least.....Sly

BTW where r u from...? ? Wht abt ur dog..? which bloodline...?? I'm very curious to find out...!Cool

Cheers.....






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 19, 2003, 6:37 PM

Post #17 of 251 (13056 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hi PSD,

When u mentioned the old working line....? wht do mean ... when do u start differentiate between old & new working line..? at least as far as I know...back in the 60s, even early 70s and before...there isn't much difference between working line & highline . . . . they r almost the same..!
Imagine if we can have another VA dogs like Bernd or Bodo v Lierberg...now....! Angelic...WOW...! !


You are perfectly right that those day there is only one type of GSD....the working GSD. Along the way SchH was devised to test the working ability and Shows were used to keep conformation tolerable. However this soon became an obsession and there then become 2 different group of people breeding GSD's based on the 2 different goals. Through a very tight linebreeding to get a good conformation, the poor tempremented dogs starts to come in. Some show breeders realises this mistake and tried to repair this by outcrossing back into working dogs in a hope to balance the temprement. The offsprings of these are called new-lines(at least to me). One breeder whom had successfully managed to keep a good conformed GSD whom is also good in working ability is Peko Haus and their all time greats was Karlo Peko Haus. By the old lines I meant those that remains of pure working genepools and bread with 1st priority of working ability, conformation is still important but secondary consideration.

Bernd Lierberg is a great dog and produce well a real immortal.


In Reply To
Yup , Flinks is a really trainer . . . I m just doing Drv Focus & Grip for now . . . .but I dun think I'll be doing any defence drv though . . . .its extremely hard to get a "helper" here in M'sia let alone a good one. He is 9 months old rite now.


Hey at 9 months is too soon for defense. Build the grip first to make sure it is hard and calm and make the prey drive impeccable. All these you can build yourself for now. Don't worry about defense at this stage.

Helper can get, only thing is to get a helper who knows drives and how to read the dog is something else.


In Reply To
you amuse me"

Why..?? Shocked...well anyway his sire is of Lord's bloodline thru Blek E. I know DDR line is not too tough(hard) as compare say Czech or even BDR dog like Mink.....but for an inexperience guy like me DDR will do just nicely....I also happen to like their darker pigment, strong bone & blocky head.Tongue Anyway the dam is out of Asko vd Lutter , so hopefully will bring out the working drv at least.....Sly

In Reply To

I meant that as a compliment. Smile

Ah! Lord Gleisdreieck is a great working dog with a conformation to die for. If my memory serves me right Blek Egidius was inported into slovakia to help improve bone structure and stronger heads. There are few Czech lines having Lord's in the pedigree this way. I would not say that DDR's or W. German dogs is not hard. It is just that the breeders don't usually let them out of the country to begin with. There is some serious dog here and the heads ahhh! is uncomparable.

Mink is nice to have in the Pedigree. I'm sure you know that Asko sired over 1000 progeny's? (if not more) He is like the most irresitable stud on the block. I was planning to go Mink all the while until some Czech's bloodline stole my eye Wink I will be getting some dogs in by end of the year to test. Will still be basing some of my bloodlines on Mink.

Your puppy looks nice with such strong pedigree. How is the prey and has he started showing some defense?

I have a 4-4 mink, 5-5 cora haardblick , 5-5 ylo waldeckerhof bitch.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


airdrigh
Novice

Sep 19, 2003, 11:25 PM

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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow! the two of you know your GSD's! PSD you sound like an experienced breeder. Would love to have a look at your dogs and when you mentioned bringing in some by the end of the year, you mean you'll be importing some in, and from where?


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 20, 2003, 1:22 AM

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Re: [airdrigh] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Airdrigh,

No lah! Just a hobby. Someone needs to do something if we want to see SchutzHund taking off in this country. Just doing my part to bring in some proven bloodlines to enrich the working genepools here. My setup is not to my liking yet but once I can get my acts together perhaps we can do some demo to help everyone understands. For now I cannot obviously put up something which I haven't tested throughly and approve yet. Smile Hope you understand. Be patient my friendTongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 20, 2003, 4:56 AM

Post #20 of 251 (13035 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Dun worry, I've not started my dog in defense ... like I said earlier I dun think I ever will....well unless we can get the Sch Club going or something like that.

Anyway his prey drv is developing very nicely....improving but not too hectic, used to put a string on the tug to get his attention but now no need already! ....but his food drv is really overboard (he is a voracious eater)...as for his defence drv well its just begining to show these last 2-3 mths . . . mostly against dogs who go by the house.....the funny thing he is ok wt cat..!Crazy..maybe he thk they r too small to be a threat ! Sly

BTW I heard that Blek is in US now...but not used too often in there ? ? wht a waste..Unsure.>!

I thk u got urself a nice working bitch , how old is she ? wt a 4-4 on Mink, is she very dominant, wht abt rank issue ? . . I understand Mink line is well sought by police force as service dogs . . because of their HIGH prey & hunt drv....& not forgeting the hardness.

So which Czech bloodline that u have eyes on....is it the PS_line ? ?

BTW, u were mentioning the Peko Haus....heard that the breeder has retired...is it true...?Frown ...read on other forum that Karlo is one hell of serious working dog ....just like Mink I would say...too bad never had a chance to watch them in action....!

Just wanna chk have u heard of this dog,
Pike von der Schafbachmuhle...a fully black dog wt a masculine head to die for.....well he is sire by Karlo, heard that he line is currently well sought after as well in Europe...!Smile....






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 20, 2003, 6:08 AM

Post #21 of 251 (13032 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hi PSD,

Dun worry, I've not started my dog in defense ... like I said earlier I dun think I ever will....well unless we can get the Sch Club going or something like that.


You don't need a SchH club to put in defense. This step is necessary to graduate the dog into fight drive. Otherwise you will have big problem later if your dog are locked in prey. 100% prey dogs are not very good at protection in real life conditions. You can start another post on training defense later when you need it. Someone may just be able to help.


In Reply To
Anyway his prey drv is developing very nicely....improving but not too hectic, used to put a string on the tug to get his attention but now no need already! ....but his food drv is really overboard (he is a voracious eater)...as for his defence drv well its just begining to show these last 2-3 mths . . . mostly against dogs who go by the house.....the funny thing he is ok wt cat..!Crazy..maybe he thk they r too small to be a threat ! Sly


You can use the food drive for the O/B side as food is very motivationalSmile But at this age keep him lean...very lean otherwise the joints will suffer over long terms. The defense with dogs is different with defense with man. you have to eventually agitate his defense with man (not now) otherwise he will not be confident to commit the bite. As for the cat, you willhave problem if he show defense......he should be showing prey instead.


In Reply To
I thk u got urself a nice working bitch , how old is she ? wt a 4-4 on Mink, is she very dominant, wht abt rank issue ? . . I understand Mink line is well sought by police force as service dogs . . because of their HIGH prey & hunt drv....& not forgeting the hardness.


she is the most dominant of her litter and outright dominant. Yes rank issue is there a one man dog. She wont work for 2 different handler same like her mother whom is also very dominant. Extreeme nerve she has, nothing ever threatens her which is why her defense rarely comes in at all. Very hard. She is a very stable bitch with high prey. This is one dog which I believe maturity will bring it straight into fight drive once we do defense agitation. I'm still delaying this though as I want to see crushing bites before doing that. She is now 13 months. I would however prefer a bit more civil sharpness here.


In Reply To
So which Czech bloodline that u have eyes on....is it the PS_line ? ?


You must be careful on generelising too much on PS line. PS have very good dogs and a fair share of rotten ones who produces goose poo. You have to study the bloodlines very closely and see not only generations before but also the progenies to see if they are worth the look. I have set my views but let me test first lah! Will tell you later if proven good.


In Reply To
BTW, u were mentioning the Peko Haus....heard that the breeder has retired...is it true...?Frown ...read on other forum that Karlo is one hell of serious working dog ....just like Mink I would say...too bad never had a chance to watch them in action....!

Just wanna chk have u heard of this dog,
Pike von der Schafbachmuhle...a fully black dog wt a masculine head to die for.....well he is sire by Karlo, heard that he line is currently well sought after as well in Europe...!Smile....


Yes he retired. I think any GSD enthusiast worth itself in gold should know Karlo and the son Pike. They are really one of a kind dogs. Pike and Karlo is very nice to have in pedigree. I would kill for a Karlo 2-2. Can even go disturb the show rings with such dogs.Wink

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 20, 2003, 6:09 AM

Post #22 of 251 (13031 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

Check your e-mail.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 20, 2003, 6:36 PM

Post #23 of 251 (13022 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Quote :

" would however prefer a bit more civil sharpness here. "


Civil . . .? something which I find kinda hard to understand...?

I tot Civil = "aggr" , so if too sharp would it be to hectic too control.....sorry I'm kinda new to this. Wink

Regarding PS_line, there's not too much info out there abt Czech dogs...so its a bit hard to study how does the individual PS dogs produce.How do u find out...?

BTW do keep the board update on which line of Czech ur getting . . Tongue! Wht do u thk of "Anrebri & Jinipo", r they getting too commecial (show)....?

Have u ever thought of getting a Pike (Karlo) line for ur breeding program , I would be most interested....Cool..in the progeny ! we can go disturb the show together then...he-he Sly

Cheers.................






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 22, 2003, 8:48 AM

Post #24 of 251 (13010 views)
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In Reply To
Civil . . .? something which I find kinda hard to understand...?

I tot Civil = "aggr" , so if too sharp would it be to hectic too control.....sorry I'm kinda new to this. Wink


Civil = Aggr.....not very accurate intepretation. Being civil means to perceive a 3rd party a threat until being told otherwise by the handler. For example a walk in the park and the dog goes pass a jogger whom doesn't stare into his eyes or give any thretening gestures will just be ignored. But a person come in a straight line stare into the dog's eye directly or acting suspicious causes the alarm bark. The bark is deep and usually followed in 3-4 consequitive barks. This is being civil. Barking at another dog or cat etc is not considered civil.


In Reply To
Regarding PS_line, there's not too much info out there abt Czech dogs...so its a bit hard to study how does the individual PS dogs produce.How do u find out...?


Lots of Research and being inquisitive I guess.


In Reply To
BTW do keep the board update on which line of Czech ur getting . . Tongue! Wht do u thk of "Anrebri & Jinipo", r they getting too commecial show)....?


Jinopo is started by Jiri Novotny. He was the director of the PS program. There they have very good dogs But dealing in Czech, it is who you know that ensures you get what you are looking for. Otherwise many will get rotten goods there if not careful. Anbreri has some of very serious dogs. They also deals in showlines though. You just have to know about the pedigrees to be sure you know what you get.


In Reply To
Have u ever thought of getting a Pike (Karlo) line for ur breeding program , I would be most interested....Cool..in the progeny ! we can go disturb the show together then...he-he Sly


Interesting thought Sly Wondered what will happen if working GSD stole the titles from showies SlyLaugh Tell you the truth, I never envision my plans to include Karlo n pike. Don't know why but maybe I have not researched much into this line enough to form the right confidence. Who knows I may just do that in future when I have more time for experimenting.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mhazman
Member

Sep 22, 2003, 8:09 PM

Post #25 of 251 (13005 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD & Pollux,
After reading your posts for some time, I've decided to join in..
I'm also crazy on working dogs and protection sports.
I've got a Czech dog for my family protection and their courage and hardness is very different from others.
I think there may be enough ppl interested to start a
dogsports club...

Azman


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 22, 2003, 8:37 PM

Post #26 of 251 (5985 views)
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In Reply To
Hi PSD & Pollux,
After reading your posts for some time, I've decided to join in..
I'm also crazy on working dogs and protection sports.
I've got a Czech dog for my family protection and their courage and hardness is very different from others.
I think there may be enough ppl interested to start a
dogsports club...

Azman


Azman,

Good to see you coming in. Where are you based? Which Czech line do you have and are you doing any training with it? Just want to know you better.

I think more working dogs people should congregate and start conversations and discussion on training topics so that the public can understand more about working dogs. It is from contribution and participation we can get the first feel of how many people is there before going for bigger things. Your first step is most correct. Hope to see more of your posting.

many people I think may be a bit intimidated to participate in this forum due to the depth of discussion Polluxx had brought up Laugh I think he has done a lot of his homework to be able to come up with such topics and comments.

Nevertheless, Please join which ever level your are in as long as you have interest in working dogs, use this chance to deepen your knowledge. If I or any other more experienced people are available I'm sure you will get your response. I always remember that everyone have to start from somewhere and the more you ask the faster your learning curve.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 22, 2003, 9:04 PM

Post #27 of 251 (5981 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

It's wonderful u can join in the discussion, we for sure can need more ppl like u to participate. Smile

Just curious... your Czech dog is out of which line (Sire & dam)..? Did u import him in as a trained adult or puppy . . .?

BTW I've yet to see any Czech GSD in M'sia. The closest thing is Slov & DDR...?

How is his temperament & working drv. maybe u can share with the board member abt ur experience . . . ! Wink

Quote :

"and their courage and hardness is very different from others. "

is he handler hard & strong fight drv. . ? maybe u can help to describe more abt this.....sorry ! I'm just too curious....! Blush

What abt his pysical attributes, bonestrength, colour (. . . dark sable ? ?), oh yeah... wht abt his head size... sorry ! I got this fetish for big blocky head..Sly

I heard that Czech line is mostly out of old DDR workingline (Border Patrol....kinda of thing...u know..!) so they might share some of the similar phenotype.

BTW which state r u from.....? Hopefully u r form JH,...so I can have one more kaki nearby...!






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


mhazman
Member

Sep 22, 2003, 9:05 PM

Post #28 of 251 (5981 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

PSD,
My dog is the son of Norbo Ben Ju and and Gero Blatenskeho zamku grandson on the dam side. I guess you know the lines by now. I'm a fan of Titus zPS...
There are also 3 (Malinois, Dobe & rott)others to support him at home.

We do a bit of everything to keep them occupied. My Malinois and Rott is doing some prey bitework while the GSD is mainly defense and bites for real. It's not easy to get helpers for real protection works.
And he's pretty civil.

I think the awareness is very important to all dog people before they buy or breed dogs so that we can have more working dogs that are true to its breed standards.

Azman


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 22, 2003, 9:15 PM

Post #29 of 251 (5980 views)
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In Reply To
PSD,
My dog is the son of Norbo Ben Ju and and Gero Blatenskeho zamku grandson on the dam side. I guess you know the lines by now. I'm a fan of Titus zPS...
There are also 3 (Malinois, Dobe & rott)others to support him at home.

We do a bit of everything to keep them occupied. My Malinois and Rott is doing some prey bitework while the GSD is mainly defense and bites for real. It's not easy to get helpers for real protection works.
And he's pretty civil.

I think the awareness is very important to all dog people before they buy or breed dogs so that we can have more working dogs that are true to its breed standards.

Azman


Azman,

Hey you have a hellofa dog there. Yeah, civil is the middle name for most Czech dogs. How old is he? Any titles yet?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 22, 2003, 9:20 PM

Post #30 of 251 (5979 views)
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Hi PSD,

Quote :

"Civil = Aggr.....not very accurate intepretation. Being civil means to perceive a 3rd party a threat until being told otherwise by the handler. For example a walk in the park and the dog goes pass a jogger whom doesn't stare into his eyes or give any thretening gestures will just be ignored. But a person come in a straight line stare into the dog's eye directly or acting suspicious causes the alarm bark. The bark is deep and usually followed in 3-4 consequitive barks. This is being civil. Barking at another dog or cat etc is not considered civil."

So Civil is basically barking under threat when in defensive mode. Thanx for pointing out to me. Tongue

Regarding the Czech line, maybe we can chk wt Azman since he own one....would be most curious to see what he has got to say abt them.

My next pose maybe totally out of wht we have been discussing so far, anyway here it goes well I read somewhere that Zamb Winerau (VA) produce good working dog when use wt good working bitch, so have u read anything abt this. I know the sh-line angulation is crappy....but it will help in area such as bone strength & sizes......just curious..!

Wht do u think...??

will write again later.....working rite now..! Tongue












"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 22, 2003, 9:56 PM

Post #31 of 251 (5979 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

Sorry, This is a line I'll get far far away from. I'd rather not comment more.

Bone strength and size is really not the issue that you must use Zamb for it. Also to watch out for is not to overemphasise of extreemes in size as this will then be bred out of standard like Shiloh and King Sheppherd who is then too heavy to work. Definately not my cup of tea.
Tongue
Extreemes in working drives is another thing though

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mhazman
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 1:23 AM

Post #32 of 251 (5974 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

He is 2 1/2 yrs old. He was bred and trained by Jiri for personal protection and dual purpose work. I'm not planning to title him for now but if we have Sch. or IPO here I'd like to title my Malinois.

Azman


mhazman
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 1:31 AM

Post #33 of 251 (5974 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

My version of civil would be " willingness to fight a man without equipment". I guess thats why the dogs are trained on hidden sleeve and muzzlework. But its a little bit risky..

Azman


mhazman
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 3:25 AM

Post #34 of 251 (5971 views)
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Polluxx,

"BTW I've yet to see any Czech GSD in M'sia. The closest thing is Slov & DDR...? "

I have his photo attached in the members intro. under mhazman page 16 on March 25,2003 if you'd like to see or you can come to my place... Sungai Buloh, Selangor.

"How is his temperament & working drv. maybe u can share with the board member abt ur experience . . . !

Quote :

"and their courage and hardness is very different from others. "

is he handler hard & strong fight drv. . ? maybe u can help to describe more abt this.....sorry ! I'm just too curious....! "

He is handled by my children but can be hard and tough when working. Also very protective of his family and territory. Overall, I would rather have him beside me in a real life situation.

Azman


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 23, 2003, 4:52 AM

Post #35 of 251 (5968 views)
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Hi Azman,

Just seen ur Amor's photo, U got urself a tough looking dog there !

*"Norbo Ben Ju and and Gero Blatenskeho zamku"*

WoW !Shocked ! must be one hell of a dominant dog u got there . . . ! Wink I wonder does anything scare him at all...!

Quote :
"He is handled by my children but can be hard and tough when working."

So does he has any rank issue . . ! I meant since ur kid is handling them...he should be ok rite..? ?

BTW it seems a lot of Czech fan is crazy abt Titus PS, any particular reason, other than the hardness and the extremely strong prey/fight drv . . ? wht does he produce....? how abt his hip record ? would be most interested to find out...Smile


Oh yeah one last thing, I'm just curious , ur rott is out of which line ? ....errr....rott is another one my fav breed..! Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


airdrigh
Novice

Sep 23, 2003, 5:04 AM

Post #36 of 251 (5966 views)
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hi polluxx, I have been following this thread and am really interested in learning more about GSD's. Are you in JB? where do you learn so much about the GSD's? and do you know of any good breeders locally in kl or is it more advisable to import a good GSD in?


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 23, 2003, 5:10 AM

Post #37 of 251 (5966 views)
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Hi PSD,

Quote :
"Bone strength and size is really not the issue that you must use Zamb for it. "
dun worry la...not into breeding yet , just something I've read quite sometime back so just wanna gather some feedback. Wink

Anyway, didn't the FCI (or was it SV ? ? ) was trying something like the Universal Sieger to bridge the gap between working & show sometime back . . . any idea wht happen to it ? ?

Talking abt breeding, wht do u think of Azman's serious working stud ?He-he ! Sly... trying to play matchmaker here....Tongue . .U know wht, I'm kinda floor when in less than a wk I found out there a there's Mink progeny & serious working Czech in M'sia......WoW..Shocked..!

hoping to see more out there.....Smile..!






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 23, 2003, 6:24 AM

Post #38 of 251 (5963 views)
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Hi airdrigh,

"Are you in JB? "
Nope....nearby...KT. Have u been there ?

Well I first of all I dun thk I know a lot abt GSD, but most of the info I get is from internet discussion board such as this . . . . so my advise would be to join more discussion board esp those dealing wt GSD.

I dun know a lot of breeder in M'sia , just a handful only but I would advise tht u do ur research 1st before getting one. I m sure there will be a lot ppl on this board who will guide you if u have any query !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


mhazman
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 6:55 PM

Post #39 of 251 (5951 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

"WoW ! ! must be one hell of a dominant dog u got there . . . ! I wonder does anything scare him at all...! "
He is dominant but with the other dogs .
So far the tail is still up.....

"So does he has any rank issue . . ! I meant since ur kid is handling them...he should be ok rite..? ? "

OK with all except my 4 yr old ( about the same size)
boy who likes to tease him. Also OK with other dogs except my rott. I think it is rank issue. No settlement yet.... Already fought twice..

Titus zPS - He is one of the famous studs at zPS kennel. There are also others like Grim zPS etc. which were used to improve hardness and courage.
Normally they produce quite versatile dogs that can do a lot of task and with early socialisation, it will also make a good house dog.
There 's no ZW or breed value like the SV does in Germany but they have the breed survey similar to koerung which is limited to the individual dog.
But these are real working dogs which are bred for their working abilities, so I'll bet on them rather than
a good ZW dog if I need a real working dog. Don't get me wrong, the ZW # is important for HD/ED but it is as good as the number of dogs behind it.

"Oh yeah one last thing, I'm just curious , ur rott is out of which line ? ....errr....rott is another one my fav breed..! "

He's the son of Bronko od Dragicevica linebred to Gil crni lotos.

Azman


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 23, 2003, 9:13 PM

Post #40 of 251 (5942 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

Well I guess there is some truth as to wht u thk abt ZW # but I thk it serve as a useful tool when it comes to choosing a breeding mate.

Let say if I'm into breeding I will want to know the progeny pre-disposition to HD, I guess its something like wht we refer as calculated risk. Wht do u think ? Cool

But then I guess it is still hard to use the ZW# here, coz it is dynamic so unless we can get updated database periodicaly from SV , if not whatever no. we have on hand will be old news 1- yrs down the road..! Unimpressed

Just curious, was Amor breed-surveyed b4 u got him, if yes, is it ok to share his survey no. on the board ? ? Wink

BTW any reason u choose Gil's line (well Bronko is a gorgeus looking dog, wht a head !...Cool ), I was thinking u might have German working line since u r into working line. Tongue . So how old is he, and how is his prey & defence drv coming up . . ! Recently I was chking out the Hammerbachtl, Shambal line, so do u have any info abt them..?

I got a fren who has a Bronko's daughter. He was complaining abt something like undershot or...... is it over-shot jaw problem . . ? He didn't mention much abt her drv though...he is into show !

Cheers






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


mhazman
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 10:49 PM

Post #41 of 251 (5941 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,
"Let say if I'm into breeding I will want to know the progeny pre-disposition to HD, I guess its something like wht we refer as calculated risk. Wht do u think ? " Agreed but still no guarantee.

Amor- He was too young for BST when I got him here. Furthermore he is here for protection and not for breeding.

I'm not into rott as much as GSD. Just happen that I had the opportunity to have Gil's grandson, so I took that 'calculated risk'.
He's 1 yr now.
Prey drive - He's 3rd after Amor and the Malinois is 1st.
Defense - Slowly developing... still very playful but has improved in his bitework.
"Hammerbachtl, Shambal lines" sorry can't help you much.
I 've heard a lot of people claim that their dog doesn't match the breed standard for body conformation. It is again the other side of the calculated risk of buying a puppy because of the parent's credentials. I'm not a rott expert but at 1 year old I'm happy with him inside out. ( mmh.. Maybe he could improve on the obedience a little bit)

Azman


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 23, 2003, 11:18 PM

Post #42 of 251 (5939 views)
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Re: [all] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx, Azman, Airdrigh,

Wow! Just dissapear for a while and seems there is much action here. Good to go guys.

Airdrigh, Polluxx is rite. Do more participation and pick up more about GSD. Just don't rush into anything if you are interested in the original lines bread for working.

Azman,

I'm quite delighted that some here shares the interest in Czech Lines. Well the difference between German n Czech is that the breeding goals slightly differs. While the germans go for Sports porpose, Czech goes for military and police use. This is why Czech dogs are more civil and seemingly more fight.

I think you already know my opinion about bridging working lines n show so I'll stop here. The universal sieger thing I believe will do worse for the breed IMO. Best to remain the 2 different lines.

Azman, if i happen to be around your area, I'll take up your offer to look see your pride Smile Like Polluxx, I'm delighted that more and more gems are unearthed in Malaysia......hope to see more.....Like this SchH will have a good chance.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


airdrigh
Novice

Sep 23, 2003, 11:58 PM

Post #43 of 251 (5936 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman, I live like just down the long road from you, taman tun area. If I am free during the weeknds, is it possible to drop by your place and have a look at your dog and maybe to learn more? Cheers.


airdrigh
Novice

Sep 24, 2003, 12:00 AM

Post #44 of 251 (5934 views)
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PSD, yup just taking things real slow at the moment trying to understand the short forms now and what they all mean. Any suggestions on what is a good website to go? And do you know of any good breeders that breed GSD's for improvement rather than for greed? Have come across too many unscrupulous breeders just out to con your money. Do you breed yourself? and where are you based?


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 24, 2003, 1:41 AM

Post #45 of 251 (5931 views)
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Re: [airdrigh] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Airdrigh,

It is mine and the boards policy not to divulge anything that may be construed as commercial. Such questions should be on personal E-mail.

Maybe Polluxx can help you with some recomendations if you contact him personally.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 24, 2003, 6:08 AM

Post #46 of 251 (5926 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

As to ur earlier post regarding ur intrepretation on "Civil"
= willingness to fight a man without equipment
for dogs trained on hidden sleeve and muzzlework

Well if that is the case, then doesn't that shows ScH wouldn't be able to test how Civil the dog is, well then the only way will be thru KNPV Ring sport, Mondio R or something similar that, as I understand those r another level altogether....Shocked
wouldn't u say so....

So how old was Amor when u got him ? Read that Czech paper takes a very long time to process & send to the buyer ! Is it true ?
BTW Is he train for Sch or SVV or real life protection works ? ? maybe I'm getting too inquisitive, hope u dun mind . . Tongue

read earlier that u r doing bitework wt ur dogs, so where did u get ur helpers ? ?

One last thing, how on earth did U manage wt so many dominant dogs around ? Wink really my hats off to u, U must be very ALPHA Tongue.... mind sharing wt us ur secret...Sly ! !
BTW r they let out together most of the time or only under close supervision...?

Cheers ! Cool






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


mhazman
Member

Sep 24, 2003, 5:52 PM

Post #47 of 251 (5920 views)
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Re: [airdrigh] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Airdrigh,

You are welcome.

Azman


mhazman
Member

Sep 24, 2003, 6:46 PM

Post #48 of 251 (5918 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

"Well if that is the case, then doesn't that shows ScH wouldn't be able to test how Civil the dog is, well then the only way will be thru KNPV Ring sport, Mondio R or something similar that, as I understand those r another level altogether....
wouldn't u say so.... "

Yupp..
I've seen some ring sport video where Sch 3 dogs ran back to their handlers when challenged by some tough helpers.

Amor is trained for real protection. I got him when he was 16 months.His papers came with his crate..

Prey bitework can be done yourself.
Defense - Some friends doing training kennel that I go to. But I seldom do it. Coz' only for Amor and transportation ...( Amor loves to sit in the car and behaves well) Need to get a SWagon or MPV. Imagine stopping at a traffic light n see a wolf like head staring deep at you. Ha ..Ha..

They have a big area to roam.( abt 1 acre... 1 dog where got enough) All 4 used to be out 24/7 until the rott. starts having eye contact with Amor and would not back down.

There's no secret lah..!
You have to resolve the rank issue and how well you bond with them. I guess its easier said..


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 24, 2003, 8:05 PM

Post #49 of 251 (5914 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"Well if that is the case, then doesn't that shows ScH wouldn't be able to test how Civil the dog is
Yupp..
I've seen some ring sport video where Sch 3 dogs ran back to their handlers when challenged by some tough helpers.


Ermmm! Guys, have to do a bit of clarification here. Cannot generalise this way lah! SchH cannot test civil aggression is because of 2 things

1) Scrap genetics in the dogs
2) Good dogs are being trained on scrappy foundation which uses prey and only prey drives

When a dog bite a sleeve there possibility of 3 drives in which he bites. He is either biting out of prey in which he sees it as a game, he bites because he is being stressed without anywhere else to run then he will bite in survival mode or defense or he bites in fight drive just because he sees the helper as a fighting partner. In good SchH work we want to see dogs bite in fight but such dogs are a gem in a million onced trained well.

Azman, the dog you see that runs on threats are prey monsters. So don't get confused of what SchH is. If you have seen more dogs then you will be able to tell which drives the dog is working in.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mhazman
Member

Sep 24, 2003, 8:27 PM

Post #50 of 251 (5912 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

PSD,
You are right..
Not to generalise but only qouting e.g of dogs trained or locked in prey still can get title.
Those with balanced drives are hard to come by.
Fully agree with you.

Azman


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 24, 2003, 9:10 PM

Post #51 of 251 (7766 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Azman,

Glad to have helped. Another thing in why SchH Protection and not straight into Civil protection training is to ensure that he only bites the sleeve in the sport trial and not everything in sight. Even because a dog bite the sleeve only does not mean he has no fight. These SchH dogs whose foundation work are done well will be able to be easily transfer trained into civil aggression for police work and personal protection work. But for PP dogs trained in Civil agression to be transfered into SchH is very dangerous for the inexperienced helper. This is why we have to decide early based on what we read in the puppy testing and along the training path and observation to prescribe what kind of training and work these dogs are better suited for.

Some are for SchH, some for PP, some excellent for Agility and some very good for competitive OB and of course some excellent for police/customs detection work. Each dog has to be read based on their own merits.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
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Sep 25, 2003, 9:18 AM

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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD & Azman,

As u know I m currently only doing prey works, trying to get him to do firm grip on tug before moving on.

Therefore b4 I attempt to do any defensive works, is there any method/ways to develop / bring-out / stimulate his defensive drv . I wanna be damm sure wt all this b4 moving on to this step, the other reason is I dun wanna stress him too early. Unsure Is there any other method than tie-in to stimulate this drv..? Shocked . . . Anybody ? ?

How do u read into defensive drv , I meant other than the hackles at the back of its neck & a deeper bark under aggitation or..? ? Crazy the reason is I dun wanna be confuse def drv with weak nerve so that if his nerve cannot handle protection work I will stop this phase immediately......!

BTW anybody knows any place in M'sia that sell prot sleeve etc ?

Thanx






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 25, 2003, 6:53 PM

Post #53 of 251 (7749 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
As u know I m currently only doing prey works, trying to get him to do firm grip on tug before moving on.


Rite. Firm grip, calm grip, run with prey, dont drop prey is what I like to see before proceeding.


Quote
Therefore b4 I attempt to do any defensive works, is there any method/ways to develop / bring-out / stimulate his defensive drv . I wanna be damm sure wt all this b4 moving on to this step, the other reason is I dun wanna stress him too early. Unsure Is there any other method than tie-in to stimulate this drv..? Shocked . . . Anybody ? ?


At 9mths I will not do that in general. Further to that you havent graduate the dog onto a sleeve yet. Do this first and get the bite in prey and work the bite to be as good as mentioned above. Then do tie out to intensify the prey drive and introduction into prey guarding frustrations. When qualified on that, do some civil agitation in a suspicious place not known by the dog, you need a helper here. This is to build defense for a week or 2 which you also use an unknown helper to do defensive tie out training on sleeve. This will build the defense stress level and from here if done correctly will build confidence and then you see fight drive coming in. These mentioned above is big steps and takes time. I could not put everything into writing but know that there is more parameters to look out for.

However Polluxx, dont be so hurry with this. too early is not good.

While there are other ways of bringing up defense, which some "pro" helpers we have in Malaysia goes straight into thretening the dog. I find those a bit crappy as the dog run a high risk of losing every confidence that you were trying to build for the last 8 months to bring up. These dogs if they make it will be biting all the way in defence drive instead of graduating into fight. Very little do I see them graduate into fight unless they are very strong dogs sadly this method will break a lot of dogs.


Quote
How do u read into defensive drv , I meant other than the hackles at the back of its neck & a deeper bark under aggitation or..? ? Crazy the reason is I dun wanna be confuse def drv with weak nerve so that if his nerve cannot handle protection work I will stop this phase immediately......!


You will see the nerve by how confident he handles his surroundings, loud noise, firecrackers, etc. Good nerves dog will be indifferent and better still will check out the noise source. Haven't you done puppy test when you got him? It should already show then.


Quote
BTW anybody knows any place in M'sia that sell prot sleeve etc ?


I want to know too myself as I was getting my supplies all from the net. At 9 mths, you might want to use puppy sleeve first before going onto hard sleeve. Shape the bites better this way.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

(This post was edited by PSD on Sep 25, 2003, 7:04 PM)


Polluxx
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Sep 25, 2003, 8:37 PM

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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Quote : ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 9mths I will not do that in general. Further to that you havent graduate the dog onto a sleeve yet. Do this first and get the bite in prey and work the bite to be as good as mentioned above. Then do tie out to intensify the prey drive and introduction into prey guarding frustrations.

__________________________________________________________

Thanx for timely advise, I will keep that in mind. Just wanna clarify a bit , is it alrite to do the tie-out (to build frustration) myself or you nedd to get a helper to do it ? ?

As for his nerves, well from wht I gather & observe he is ok wt loud noise, things like fire-crackers dun scare him, I got him around CNY so there was a lot of crackers going off around my neighbourhood, I thk he slept through most of it but not my other dog...LOL ! Laugh , as for the puppy test , well I forgot to bring anything wt me then, so I just improvised using a bunch of keys that I was holding Wink, i dun thk the noise was loud enough but he did chk out the source of noise , but he was not very lively at that time (I thk it was around mid-day then) . . . Anyway I guess I just have to wait & see, should have a better picture in another few more mths. Angelic praying real hard....he-he ! Sly

BTW anybody wanna give a go in interpreting "FIGHT drv" ? I thk it will be very useful to other reader on board since this term is use quite frequently here...! Azman, ..PSD, ..anybody ? ?






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 25, 2003, 8:37 PM

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Re: [Polluxx, mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My version of civil would be " willingness to fight a man without equipment". I guess thats why the dogs are trained on hidden sleeve and muzzlework. But its a little bit risky..


Polluxx,

Azman is right with this description. I was replying you earlier on civil sharpness which is defense bark....along the way I guess the word sharpness got lost in the translation.Sly

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 25, 2003, 8:55 PM

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Re: [PSD, mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD , Azman,

Both of U, wht do u thk of this ?

Civil = "Willingness or Courage to engage in Fight when under threat" Wink !










"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 25, 2003, 8:58 PM

Post #57 of 251 (7738 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote

Thanx for timely advise, I will keep that in mind. Just wanna clarify a bit , is it alrite to do the tie-out (to build frustration) myself or you nedd to get a helper to do it ? ?


anything in prey you can do yourself. Defensive tie out only someone not known by the dog can do.


Quote
As for his nerves, well from wht I gather & observe he is ok wt loud noise, things like fire-crackers dun scare him, I got him around CNY so there was a lot of crackers going off around my neighbourhood, I thk he slept through most of it but not my other dog...LOL ! Laugh , as for the puppy test , well I forgot to bring anything wt me then, so I just improvised using a bunch of keys that I was holding Wink, i dun thk the noise was loud enough but he did chk out the source of noise , but he was not very lively at that time (I thk it was around mid-day then) . . . Anyway I guess I just have to wait & see, should have a better picture in another few more mths. Angelic praying real hard....he-he ! Sly


I think you dog is ok.


Quote
BTW anybody wanna give a go in interpreting "FIGHT drv" ? I thk it will be very useful to other reader on board since this term is use quite frequently here...! Azman, ..PSD, ..anybody ? ?


Azman, say something!Sly You have dissapeared long enough......Tongue Gua mau bagi lu chance!!Pirate

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
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Sep 26, 2003, 4:30 AM

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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

this board is missing U already .....Blush ! ! !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


colinchin
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Sep 26, 2003, 5:02 PM

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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

I am from JB and currently looking for working line breed. I would like to catch up with you and perhaps we could meet up and get to know each other. As you are aware there are only a handful of people are into working line breeds.

It will be great to meet you in person, so far I have not seen any working line breeds in JB or Kota Tinggi yet.

Hope to hear from you. Good day.

p/s: Hi to Azman and PSD as well. Hope to meet up with you guys up there as well one day. BTW, PSD where are you located ?

Regards,

Colin


mhazman
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Sep 26, 2003, 8:00 PM

Post #60 of 251 (7715 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Guys..,
I went to Melaka lah.. yesterday.

Polluxx,
How well can you read your dog or other dogs ?
Defense requires courage & nerves.
Sharpness is a threshold.

In the bitework, does your dog counter ?
I think PSD will agree with me that explaining all these is not as easy. Definition and interpretations differ. Everybody's learning...

At 9 months your dog should show (1 to 3 yrs must be there if not may not be there at all) signs of defense drive. Observe them and build on it step by step.
Look at his body language when reacting to unfamiliar things or person. He should have focus, defense posture and the defense bark etc. Easier to say when you have the dog in front of you. Don't stress him into avoidance.

How is his obedience?
Is he willing to overcome obstacles to listen to you ?

Where did you buy your tugs?

Azman


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 26, 2003, 8:53 PM

Post #61 of 251 (7712 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Guys..,
I went to Melaka lah.. yesterday.


Welcome backSmile


Quote
Defense requires courage & nerves.


I would word it this way

"Training defense for success requires courage and nerves"

The reason being poor nerves dogs with no courage will still have defense at a very very low threshold.


Quote
At 9 months your dog should show (1 to 3 yrs must be there if not may not be there at all) signs of defense drive. Observe them and build on it step by step.


Defense will come in different stages depending on the dog. This is why training a reliable protection dog must follow the dogs schedule and not regimented trainers schedule. To do too early will push the dog into avoidance but to do too late will locked them in prey.

For your example I have seen a dog whom doesn't show defense until 18 months but at 18 month when he does come, wah lao! no pray..pray one ah!

As a generalisation, German lines are slower in defence maturation while Czech are earlier. Again this is generalisation and not a comandment.


Quote
Look at his body language when reacting to unfamiliar things or person. He should have focus, defense posture and the defense bark etc. Easier to say when you have the dog in front of you. Don't stress him into avoidance.


Azman is right. Starting defense work must not involve any contact at all until the dog is very sure. It must be done at a distance for a start and slowly worked closer into them for couple of weeks and still no bite. this will build confidence and intensity.

I think this is where Guard dogs training and SchH training start to form some differences in the training method. Most commercial guard dog trainer if not all will want to rush into stressing the dog to bite out of defense. Their job is done as long as the dog perceives the threat and bite. But for SchH we cannot do that as we want the dog to bite and bring the fight into the helper. The bite must be full and calm not nervy half bite which defensive dog will give out.

So fight drive in my own word is a dog who is of very confident in winning the fight with the helper and not bothered by anything else. He sees the threat as his equal fighting partner which he will not lose to. He charged into the helper in more of forward motion rather than try to drag the helper all over the trial field. So in shrt

fight drives come from Defense + Prey with experience and confidence of always winning a fight.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 26, 2003, 9:03 PM

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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Colin,

Well its abt time someone from JB come on board ! So what makes U interested wt working line breed , BTW when U mentioned working line breed do U mean GSD or any other working breed ? Cool

Well for your info, I currently owned a young working line GSD, and yes I thk there is at least a few other working line GSD in Jhr but I really can't confirm it ! Wink

BTW if u have anything to ask abt working line GSD in particular, I'm sure our 2 resident experience owner on board ("PSD & Azman"), Tongue....they would be able to offer their advice to U. Dun worry they dun "bite"........Ouch...!SlySly.... and as for me, I will do wth I can to help.......sorry l am still in infancy stage , so not much of experience yet.....! But hey aren't we all here to learn rite ! Smile

U can also contact me directly at , I m looking forward of meeting U one of these days...! Cool

Have fun on board ........!






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 26, 2003, 9:25 PM

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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

Phew !....well its abt time u r back ,

So how was ur trip to our "Historical City"

Quote : "How well can you read your dog or other dogs ?"

SO-so only Blush.....but I 'm trying to learn more from training tapes...! U can see more variety of drv / nerve from the eg shown on the tape ! That is why I m asking for more interpretation on our discusssion topic so that I dun get confused here..! Tongue

Anyway back to ur reply abt Def drv ,

Quote :"Defense requires courage & nerves"

. . . do u mean to say "Fighting Drv" coz I tot defense drv occcur depends on the nerves of the dog, tso the harder the dog is the harder to stress him into Def Drv...while a weaker nerve dog will be stress quite easily or even will take flight...!....What do U think.....! Cool

BTW just to assure U guys,.....I will only stimulate my dog defence when he is at least 15 mths old...just wanna play safe la..Wink

His obedience is ok ..... but not tested yet (mostly in-house).....so recalling him is still easy....the only problem now is "heeling"....very susah to get his attention but when I try use food it is "over attention" Laugh

I got my tug over the NET...! so its kinda ex....that's why I m checking does anybody here know where to get tug /sleeve in M'sia...will very much appreciate any info on this..Smile Wht abt U, Azman where did U get ur sleeve ?






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


mhazman
Member

Sep 27, 2003, 5:13 AM

Post #64 of 251 (7696 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,
Melaka- Just doing site visit .Got some old LPs at Jonker St.

Depending on the threat level ,courage and its training, your dog will react differently whether to fight or take flight. This is normally where sport dogs,
real protection dogs and Police service dogs starts to
differ.All these dogs have defense but with varying degrees.
Weak nerves- You need some ground rules to do protection and PSD is good at advocating this..
Get the right lineage, see/know the parents, puppy selection test, early conditioning and imprinting etc should give you a decent working dog.

Tugs & Sleeve- Have to import from Mr. Bush

Azman


Polluxx
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Sep 27, 2003, 6:08 AM

Post #65 of 251 (7689 views)
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Re: [mhazman,PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi guys,

Wht do U guys think of this !
==================================
FIGHT DRV :
is the Interaction of Prey & Defense Drv with
the Forwardness of Prey & Intensity of Defense
=====================================



Quote : Azman
"Get the right lineage, see/know the parents"
===================================
Yup thats wht I was thinking off when I got my pups, I called it stacking up my odds...Cool..he-he !



Quote : PSD
"German lines are slower in defence maturation while Czech are earlier."
=====================================
Any idea wht abt DDR lines...? Wink



Quote : PSD
"To do too early will push the dog into avoidance but to do too late will locked them in prey."
====================================
Now like wht Azman mentioned earlier, how to perceived or our dogs accurately....! I know this comes with experience but any advice will be most helpful since I dun wanna screw up this wt my 1st working GSD...Tongue



Quote : Azman
"Depending on the threat level ,courage and its training, your dog will react differently whether to fight or take flight. This is normally where sport dogs, real protection dogs and Police service dogs starts to differ"
====================================

So guys, normally who do u thk will last the distance !
My best guess will be Police Service...b'coz of the stressful test but might put my money on Mondio Ring if given a choice ... seen a demo video, I thk that's a killer for sure. . ! Shocked






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 27, 2003, 6:27 PM

Post #66 of 251 (7682 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote

==================================
FIGHT DRV :
is the Interaction of Prey & Defense Drv with
the Forwardness of Prey & Intensity of Defense
=====================================


Agreed, To help understand. Dog working in Defense drive is a very stressful dog but dog working in Fight drive is not. This is because he sees the bad guy, he get mad at the bad guy and he wants to give the bad guy a piece of his mind.Smile

An easy example of prey drive, defense drive and fight drive in use is easier explained this way.

Let just say you go for karate class, you learn all the techniques. (this is prey since in sparing there is no life and death stress)) But one day while walking down the road you are faced with a mugger with a dagger in his hands. Your blood pressure rise and the heartbeat risen you then are put into a situation of should you run or should you fight using the techniques you learned in prey (this is defense drive)
Then if you decide to take flight and flee you are a prey monster. But if you get so mad with the mugger for pointing the dagger at you and wanted so bad to teach him a lesson and give him a piece of your mind then you are working in Fight drive.(I borrowed this defination which I think easiest to understand from Frawley.


Quote

Yup thats wht I was thinking off when I got my pups, I called it stacking up my odds...Cool..he-he !


You are correct. Good lineage will narrow the margin of error in getting a good dog but good dog need to be handpicked based on their drives, hardness and sociability. which can be seen in puppies based on testing and long observation. Therefore the good breeder will be the best person to know the puppies potiential.

BTW, the breeder must be someone into the training/sport arena so that they know what is needed for that purpose.



Quote

"German lines are slower in defence maturation while Czech are earlier."
=====================================
Any idea wht abt DDR lines...? Wink


Same as german lines as a general rule



Quote

"To do too early will push the dog into avoidance but to do too late will locked them in prey."
====================================
Now like wht Azman mentioned earlier, how to perceived or our dogs accurately....! I know this comes with experience but any advice will be most helpful since I dun wanna screw up this wt my 1st working GSD...Tongue


When the grip is excellent, full and hard. He carries the prey like no tomorrow. You can't get the sleeve off him easily or none at all....that is then your cue to do defense agitation starting with civil agitation in place unknown to the dog. This is the 1st step into defense training(no bites yet please)



Quote

"Depending on the threat level ,courage and its training, your dog will react differently whether to fight or take flight. This is normally where sport dogs, real protection dogs and Police service dogs starts to differ"
====================================


Azman, do you want to be my helper with my "sports dog?" SmileThe difference is all in training methods and ability of trainers to bring up the fight. Once a dog is working in intense fight drive then they are no difference from each other be it protection dog, Police dog or PP dogs. But if you compare 100% prey monster sports dog to PP dogs then I fully agree with youCool


Quote
So guys, normally who do u thk will last the distance !
My best guess will be Police Service...b'coz of the stressful test but might put my money on Mondio Ring if given a choice ... seen a demo video, I thk that's a killer for sure. . ! Shocked


Bro, SchH also sudah pening kapla to introduce and you want Mondio Ring ah?Sly Anyway it must be an acceptance of thoughts that there are bad sports dog as well as good ones and there are bad police dog as there are good police dogs. The only difference is that since Police dogs Are specially selected from puppy testing and special inprinting process their margin of error is very very small. But if you compare good sports with a good police dog then you will not see much difference there. This is why the difference in price in top grade tested and graded working dog puppies against the average dog from the same litter.


BTW Azman, do you have an e-mail adress where I can contact you in?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mhazman
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Sep 27, 2003, 11:58 PM

Post #67 of 251 (7674 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

PSD,Polluxx,
I sense some prey & defense work in the Pastoral group. Are we in the right group ? ...

The karate kid version is very familiar to me but thought I'd not mention it since everybody seems to be in drive yesterday .
So Polluxx, if you can get you hands on Frawley's
training videos or the equivalent ( not advertising aah) before you further your dogs education then both you and your dog will greatly benefit from it.


"This is normally where sport dogs, real protection dogs and Police service dogs starts to differ"

Something is missing here.
I mean to say the requirement for these dogs differ. Whether they meet or exceed them is something else and for real protection and police dogs, only time will tell.

I think I won't last more than 10 seconds with your dog laar..

he he..

MohdAzman.MohdAli@ing.com.my


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 28, 2003, 3:51 AM

Post #68 of 251 (7671 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Bro,

Not too much defense drive lah. Just want to make this discussion lively with clarity of issues. Single drive discussion is boring lah, don't you agree?Smile Not meant to challenge thoughWink

Don't worry about my dog that much lah! You'll survive cause he is not thought civility yet so the most he will bit his favourite sleeve off you....lolLaugh

Peace pal! Sly

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Sep 28, 2003, 9:44 AM

Post #69 of 251 (7662 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD, Polluxx, Azman,

Took me about 45 minutes to 'scan' thru all your posts and u drive me crazy....so many thing that i need to check out to rally understand your conversation and discussion. Pai seh paiseh....

PSD : we must meet in person one of these days and have a nice talk abit al this, i'm a newbie in this dog thingys.

Azman : Will be great if we can arragne a day to pay u a visit

Polluxx : my mail is , do u mind share with me what sites of gsd and forums u r in ?

Guys : anyone kind enuf to have some photos up in our photo gallery or mail me personally if u choose to do so. I really wanted to take a look at your German Mongrels.Smile

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


mhazman
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Sep 28, 2003, 11:44 PM

Post #70 of 251 (7652 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

PSD,

"Not too much defense drive lah. Just want to make this discussion lively with clarity of issues. Single drive discussion is boring lah, don't you agree? Not meant to challenge though "

All the different temperaments..!
I'm OK.. with controlled aggression.. Ha ha...

Azman


mhazman
Member

Sep 28, 2003, 11:55 PM

Post #71 of 251 (7651 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Boon,

Anytime u r in KL. ..
It's only 15 min. from Sg. Buloh toll.

BTW, your Bonney not jealous ahh ?


Azman


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 29, 2003, 6:35 AM

Post #72 of 251 (7643 views)
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Re: [PSD,mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Guys,

Quote :Azman
"I sense some prey & defense work in the Pastoral group. Are we in the right group ? ... "
===================================
U bet ! ..... & where were U all this while ? ?..Tongue


Quote :Azman
"So Polluxx, if you can get you hands on Frawley's
training videos or the equivalent
====================================
Yup tht's wht I did, but mostly vid done together wt B-Flinks ! ....anyway still cannot get my pup too have good firm grips or as wht PSD mentioned earlier "Crushing Bite", still his grip is calm not chewy ! Another problem is getting him high in drv for very long currently 20 min drv work will tire him out !


Quote :PSD
"You can't get the sleeve off him easily or none at all....that is then your cue to do defense agitation starting with civil agitation in place unknown to the dog. This is the 1st step into defense training(no bites yet please)"
====================================
Thx for the tips, well my next pose will be tht if the young dog is alredi having firm grip on the tug but will not come back to the handler , so can we still move on the defense aggitation while at the same time, try to polished up the grip (calm & firm) Crazy . . . ? ?


Quote:PSD
"But if you compare good sports with a good police dog then you will not see much difference there."
====================================
I always tot Police K9 (Patrol) will be harder (stronger nerve) since like they were specially selected & have gone thru countless testing (Stress) before being selected, I thk (this just my personal opinion) sports dog in ScH (we r talking abt level3) is still not thoroughly tested for nerve of steel....I thk it could be better....? Wht do U think...? Wink


Azman, been meaning to ask U this for quite a while, how's is the "fight drv" as compare between ur Malinois & ur GSD ? Blush


One last thing Guys, any advise will be most helpful here , DO we need to polished up our dog's obedience (100%) b4 moving on to aggitation or defence drv promotion? . . .coz I thk getting my dog to go into def drv is easier than getting him to be 100& obedience... Laugh..! !

..........






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Sep 29, 2003, 6:55 AM)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 29, 2003, 6:42 AM

Post #73 of 251 (7642 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Boon,

Quote :
"do u mind share with me what sites of gsd and forums u r in ? "
====================================
Sure no problem, just chk ur e-mail !

Hope to c u here to keep the discussion going ! Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Sep 29, 2003, 7:33 AM)


boon
Doggyman


Sep 29, 2003, 8:42 AM

Post #74 of 251 (7637 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

nope, no email woh.....Blush

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Sep 29, 2003, 8:53 AM

Post #75 of 251 (7636 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

sure will drop u a line when i go to KL sometime 'soon' i thinkTongueCoolSmile

hehhehe my Bonney ah ? she will i think, but not to worry, i got secret weapon to get her agree with me to bring another dog or dogs home. Wink

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 29, 2003, 7:26 PM

Post #76 of 251 (5937 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Another problem is getting him high in drv for very long currently 20 min drv work will tire him out !


The secret is to retire him at the highest drive at every training session. He should stop at peak drive leaving him wanting more. This will get his attitide better on the next session. 20 mins is too long for puppy will bore him out.


Quote
well my next pose will be tht if the young dog is alredi having firm grip on the tug but will not come back to the handler , so can we still move on the defense aggitation while at the same time, try to polished up the grip (calm & firm) Crazy . . . ? ?


Work him on a longline to solve the coming back problem. Prey/Defense work must be done hand in hand. 100% defense work will be too stressful for a young dog. When you move 1 step ahead in your training steps you still need to polish 2-3 steps behind to ensure solidity.





Quote
"But if you compare good sports with a good police dog then you will not see much difference there."
====================================
I always tot Police K9 (Patrol) will be harder (stronger nerve) since like they were specially selected & have gone thru countless testing (Stress) before being selected, I thk (this just my personal opinion) sports dog in ScH (we r talking abt level3) is still not thoroughly tested for nerve of steel....I thk it could be better....? Wht do U think...? Wink


In general yes Police K9 have more hard dogs but in reality not necessary. Soft dogs can do pretty good apprehension work when trained well. Just that he will be a bit sensitive to his handler.

In SchH, courage test is on the last step where the helper start to run away from the dog but then at the very last moment he turns move into the dog in a thretening mode. The dog will jump in for a flying bite without hestitation. Not everyone can differentiate prey mode in a dog to fight mode. But once you can see the difference you will never be able to forget it.


Quote
One last thing Guys, any advise will be most helpful here , DO we need to polished up our dog's obedience (100%) b4 moving on to aggitation or defence drv promotion? . . .coz I thk getting my dog to go into def drv is easier than getting him to be 100& obedience... Laugh..! !

No but is advisable to do so. O/B only using drives n Motivational. Defense is easy you are right.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 29, 2003, 7:30 PM

Post #77 of 251 (5937 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Took me about 45 minutes to 'scan' thru all your posts and u drive me crazy....so many thing that i need to check out to rally understand your conversation and discussion. Pai seh paiseh....


No need to paiseh lah! It took me years to dicipher it myself and you did it in 45 mins very excellent already.Smile


Quote
PSD : we must meet in person one of these days and have a nice talk abit al this, i'm a newbie in this dog thingys.


It will be my pleasure and not to worry as everyone starts from being a newbie. Mail me if you need anything.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mhazman
Member

Sep 29, 2003, 8:17 PM

Post #78 of 251 (5933 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

"U bet ! ..... & where were U all this while ? ?.. "

Don't worry, I'm there...

Something from Frawley...

Fight drive = prey + defense+ training + experience

I can't compare the Malinois with my GSD on the fight drive yet as they are not at the same maturity level.Give me 6 months to a year may be..
Since 2 months old my Mal. was quite high in his prey drive. I'm building his defense now and hope it will be as good as his prey.
But I have to be realistic lor.. Amor was trained by Jiri Novotny and here I am trying my luck..!!

", DO we need to polished up our dog's obedience (100%) b4 moving on to aggitation or defence drv promotion? "

Not so sure about that. I guess differs from dog to dog.


rgds

Azman


boon
Doggyman


Sep 29, 2003, 9:22 PM

Post #79 of 251 (5924 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

aiyoh pai seh pai seh....

what i mean is 45 minutes to 'scan' thru all the posts, but u had just mentioned the key of all this, decipher. it simply means u know all of these term and what's what...but me is scan thru nia...understand or not, where is the history come from and y, when, where....is another issue.Blush

U really made me feel paiseh...must be more hard working now to read on this working mongrel.....if not no way to chip in for the discussion.........heheheheh

Polluxx : Still didn't receive your email leh.Blush

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 29, 2003, 10:19 PM

Post #80 of 251 (5918 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

BoonSmile,

I really liked your enthusiasm. Don't worry too much lah!just chip in whereever you can. Asking for clarification on things you don't understand is one way of doing it. Surely someone will help with the definition for you to get it faster.

Angelic

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Sep 29, 2003, 11:45 PM

Post #81 of 251 (5914 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Hahha, ok will try whenever i can, and hope u don mind if i start asking a lot of may be 'junk' regarding this working mogrel.Wink

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 29, 2003, 11:52 PM

Post #82 of 251 (5913 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Boon,

Its not a junk if its meant to be educational. No worry, I bet many will take time to help you know better.Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Sep 30, 2003, 12:01 AM

Post #83 of 251 (5912 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

ok i will WinkCoolSmile

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


colinchin
Enthusiast


Sep 30, 2003, 12:07 AM

Post #84 of 251 (5910 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Boon,

I am new to working breeds and would like to learn from you as to what you mean by working mongrel ???Shocked

You have a nice looking dog, is it a working mongrel as well ?

Thanks.

regards,

Colin


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 30, 2003, 12:15 AM

Post #85 of 251 (5906 views)
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Re: [Boon,colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

LaughLaughLaugh

Colin, The working mongrel thing was coined as a joke between Boon and myself......Sly

Boon and his working mongrel....lolLaughLaughSlyWink

Anyway, colin great to have you here.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Sep 30, 2003, 12:40 AM

Post #86 of 251 (5900 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Colin,

Nice to have u here with us, i myself am from Penang and also a newbie like you too. But not to worry, we learn from each other and if u have anything, feel free to ask and seek for clarification.

Working Mongrel == as what PSD had replied, is what we refer to as a Working Bloodline German Shepherd Dog or GSD.

Thanz for the complements, the one in my avatar is a Labrador Retriever/Lab/Labby/Labbies or sometime i use to refer her as my Monkey, Pinkie Pig (she is fat and nose.eye lip, lip pad is pink in color or a proper term is Dudley, and her eye is Hazel eyes, all this simply means no pigmentation, is a major fault in any labrador, and is disqualify from show ring). by the way her name is Bonney. Feel 'ashame' to tell u taht she is not my working dog, she is my only Bonney, my dog.

U look at her face u know, she is way to hyper and naughty than i can use words to express to u. When i work hard to hopefully earn a few cents just to survive, she sleep comfortably at home, when ir each home and she got all the energies to jump, run all over the house and when i sleep, she also sleep.

If u think this is still what u call a working dog, then her full time job is eat and sleep.TongueTongueBlushCoolWink

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


colinchin
Enthusiast


Sep 30, 2003, 12:45 AM

Post #87 of 251 (5900 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

TongueHi PSD,

Nice to see your reply over my innocent question (Some sort of secret code) between you and Boon.

How old is your pup ? Where you got it from ? I am learning about the working breeds ONLY. Where are you located ? I do go up to KL at times.

How often do you train your dog ? Any helper available to assist in your training ?

Thanks.

Regards,

Colin


colinchin
Enthusiast


Sep 30, 2003, 1:31 AM

Post #88 of 251 (5895 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Boon,

Nice to know you all the way from Penang. Nice place with lots of good and tasty food. Hmmm, I can almost smell the nasi kandar already.

Yeah, I too hope can learn from you. Take care.


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 30, 2003, 4:18 AM

Post #89 of 251 (5889 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Boon,

Quote:
"If u think this is still what u call a working dog, then her full time job is eat and sleep."
===================================
Hey ! that is my dream job ! .....maybe it is not so bad to be a working dog after all ... LOL ! TongueAngelic

BTW , Boon do chk ur mail again....pai seh la ! Blush maybe my working mongrel got lost while delivering the mail ! Wink . . .hmmm... gotta work some more on his hunt drv ...! Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 30, 2003, 4:33 AM

Post #90 of 251 (5889 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Colin,


Quote :
"Hmmm, I can almost smell the nasi kandar already."
====================================
Yum-yum....definitely , dun forget abt the Penang Laksa ..... Slurp, slurp,slurp.....Tongue !


BTW Colin do chk out this pic Gallery :
www.kennelvanhildernisse.nl/Studs.htm

hope U dun mind , just wanna help U make up ur mind ! he-he-he ! Wink

.....not bad rite, now imagine they come with "DRIVE" .....! ..! Cool






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 30, 2003, 4:48 AM

Post #91 of 251 (5888 views)
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Re: [PSD, mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Guys,

Quote:
"Fight drive=prey + defense+ training + experience"
=====================================
Yup ! ....plus "Courage" as well ! Wink


Quote :
"Since 2 months old my Mal. was quite high in his prey drive. I'm building his defense now and hope it will be as good as his prey."
===================================
Well if that is the case, I sure he will have "MEGA Fight Drv" heard tht the normally high prey dog (wt defence of course) will also posses high Fight drv ... U got urself a tough machine there, Bro . . .Wink


Anyway do keep us update on their development...!Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 30, 2003, 5:04 AM

Post #92 of 251 (5888 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Whoa ! ...Thanx for all those tips..! Smile ...pai-seh la Blush...to be keep asking for tips....!


QUOTE :
"He should stop at peak drive leaving him wanting more"
===================================
okie !...but the problem is he will dig up my small garden in no time...! Crazy


Quote:
"The dog will jump in for a flying bite without hestitation"
===================================
Now that's I'll call "courage" ! U need courage to take down an assailant/attacker ! .... I'll be first to admit maybe when compare to this courages mongrels, I'll be the 1st to take flight...! Sly


Once again thanx for all those info !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


boon
Doggyman


Sep 30, 2003, 8:17 AM

Post #93 of 251 (5884 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

hahhaah learn something new today....

regardless of what breed is that puppy socialization is the key for preparing the pup for what ever the owner plan ahead in years.

Do not separate the puppies before 7.5 weeks to 8 weeks old, if u do separate them too early like 5 to 6 weeks, they will missed out the very important stage of their life in early socialization, this will lead to a very aggresive dog when they grow up. This is the time where the pup learn and play with their littermates to be a dog.

If u keep them for too long like 9 weeks and above, they will be just 'too doggy', this simply means that they do no bond as well with human as they could have.

Hahahhaa something totally new for me......

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Sep 30, 2003, 4:02 PM

Post #94 of 251 (5878 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hie hie : )
I'm based in the Klang Valley, currently only interested in working GSDs. Was hoping that somebody can help me locate a reputable breeder/trainer.

Spoke to one of the forum members Wink here and was told to try contacting Polluxx (hope you can help me here) to get more information on a breeder in Klang.


boon
Doggyman


Sep 30, 2003, 4:28 PM

Post #95 of 251 (5877 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Wild Gun Sr,

Great to have you here to keep this working mongrel thread alive. Apparently i have no idea where u can get a Working Line locally, I heard from PSD that there are few of this dogs available in Pennisula, but not of them are in KL or Klang Valley.

May be PSD, Pollux and Azman can help you.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Sep 30, 2003, 4:56 PM

Post #96 of 251 (5876 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

hie boon,

you can just call me Guns. Yeah, from what i gather there are only a handful of working GSD breeders around, so far i heard of Kedah, Seputeh and Seremban. The thing is not sure how reliable they are...that's what's holding me back.

The Kedah kennel is rather popular at where I'm based at.

Any of you guys out there know of a Mr. Lam that was an avid GSD breeder sometime back?


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 30, 2003, 5:27 PM

Post #97 of 251 (5872 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"He should stop at peak drive leaving him wanting more"
===================================
okie !...but the problem is he will dig up my small garden in no time...! Crazy


Garden problem handles them differently from drive work. When you make drive you want to retire at the top. If you meant to tire out the dog then take for a 1 mile walk at this age and a 2 mile jog from 1.5 yrs.Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 30, 2003, 5:32 PM

Post #98 of 251 (5871 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Well if that is the case, I sure he will have "MEGA Fight Drv" heard tht the normally high prey dog (wt defence of course) will also posses high Fight drv ... U got urself a tough machine there, Bro . . .Wink


Guys, sorry i have to pour some cold water here.
High prey dog does not equals Maga fight drive. The dog either have fight drive in it or it does not. It is a genetic thing. If any generalisation in this then a dominant and perhaps handler aggressive dogs does indicate some points into good fight. But not many people can live with this type of dog though.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Sep 30, 2003, 5:35 PM

Post #99 of 251 (5869 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Guns,

R u from the north ? kedah ?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Sep 30, 2003, 5:43 PM)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 30, 2003, 5:37 PM

Post #100 of 251 (5869 views)
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Re: [colin,wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Nick,

welcome and glad you decided to join in. I think if you wanted references on any commercial matters should do it on private mail.

Colin,

Ask Polluxx if you want to any info abt me. He have tons of my info already. A real engineer he isLaugh Anyway, it is nice that you managed to catch up with Polluxx and hope to see you get your first working dog.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Sep 30, 2003, 5:46 PM

Post #101 of 251 (7207 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

nope I'm from Klang :), just from word of mouth I hear that there lots of dog breeders in the nothern regions but not central.

PSD, who's Nick? Wink


boon
Doggyman


Sep 30, 2003, 7:13 PM

Post #102 of 251 (7204 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

lots of dog breeders ? hahaha not much lah if compare to Ipoh area and surrounding.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 30, 2003, 8:01 PM

Post #103 of 251 (7203 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Howdy wildgunsr,

It's wonderful U can joined us here !

Quote : "Spoke to one of the forum members Wink here and was told to try contacting Polluxx"

Hey ! when did I become a "Breeder Directory"..? Shocked

I happened to find out recently that the board has a very strict rules in soliciting for business Tongue...so ahem ! ....so better not get involved in the comercial side of thing ! Wink, anyway U can contact me thru my e-mail ,(do chk out my earlier post !)

BTW wildgunsr, have U ever oned a GSD b4 ? , could U tell us what attract U to workingline GSD in the 1st place ? maybe U can pose query like ur exoected puppy's pedigree, bloodlines, temperament etc on this board, I'm sure there will be a few member on board who can offer their valuable advice...! Cool






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 30, 2003, 8:20 PM

Post #104 of 251 (7201 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Boon,

Yup ! socialization is the key for young pups ....! I believe U r rite too , keeping them too long wt their littermates, they will be come too doggy ! But I think it is still ok to separate them when they r alredi 10-12 wks old . . . they will still bond wt us as long as we play &, feed & socialise wt them consistently ! Wink

Anything beyond 3 mths , well I'm not too sure...! Crazy

I thk the above r norms, I have heard of exception cases like when police k9 switching handlers & this k9 will still bond wt the new handler after a while even though he/she might have been wt the old handler from young. Maybe the key lies wt the feeding, playing & working together for a considerable period of time will make the k9 feel that they r member of the pack...! Tongue

PSD might be able to shed some light on this...! Smile






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Sep 30, 2003, 8:29 PM

Post #105 of 251 (7199 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Quote:

"If you meant to tire out the dog then take for a 1 mile walk at this age and a 2 mile jog from 1.5 yrs.Smile "

Yup..that's wht I did but only for half a mile only....I, myself cannot tahan 1 mile of walk...la....Laugh...pai-seh...Blush ! ...Ok-ok , Nxt time have to remind myself to work-out 1st, b4 getting another pup (especially a working line GSD), ......LOL ! Tongue !



Polluxx






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 30, 2003, 8:50 PM

Post #106 of 251 (7196 views)
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Re: [Boon, Colin, Wildgunsr,Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I thk the above r norms, I have heard of exception cases like when police k9 switching handlers & this k9 will still bond wt the new handler after a while even though he/she might have been wt the old handler from young. Maybe the key lies wt the feeding, playing & working together for a considerable period of time will make the k9 feel that they r member of the pack...! Tongue


Any dogs will do well with a handler who knows what his duties are.Laugh

Wildgunsr,

Sorry meant to type wildgunsr donno what gone into me.Tongue

Colin,

Does the training daily.

Boon,

Sorry about the sudden DCLaugh

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

(This post was edited by PSD on Sep 30, 2003, 8:51 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Sep 30, 2003, 10:08 PM

Post #107 of 251 (7191 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

heheheh no problem, ur laptop got exploded or burst ?TongueWink

in this case the handler must be experience to handle the dog if they change their partner from time to time ? or ................load me some info plsBlush

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Sep 30, 2003, 11:50 PM

Post #108 of 251 (7187 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Boon,

Dogs are social animals. The respond to human emotions and can detect human emotions better than any human can. They are also pack animals. If you manage to establish your self as a pack leader that is consistent yet firm and fair, you should be able to retain the pack position without prob.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 1, 2003, 6:09 AM

Post #109 of 251 (7173 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool

In Reply To
BTW wildgunsr, have U ever oned a GSD b4 ? , could U tell us what attract U to workingline GSD in the 1st place ? maybe U can pose query like ur exoected puppy's pedigree, bloodlines, temperament etc on this board, I'm sure there will be a few member on board who can offer their valuable advice...! Cool



Yup I've owned (my dad actually) 3 GSDs, two fr working line and one show line. The showline was so dumb that it got stolen. Need i say more as to why I want working line? Now see, the expected pedigree is my biggest prob. I don't ask for much just one with sire and dam with a Koerklasse I, VA, IPO, FH, PSP II, SchH III, and ZPr. Yes I know, I'm dreaming...Blush Frown

What's the diff. bet. bloodlines and pedigree? Wouldn't they be the same? As for temperament, dominant dogs are a big no no, a hard dog with sufficient drives. And the intelligence to know that not every running/moving object is a prey. Only strike on command. Basically I want a guard/protection dog. My parents are getting old, crime rates ain't going down. Thus, I'm leaving my options open. Either an adult bitch (potential breeding) or a puppy.

Getting adult dogs are a bit more tough, in my opinion, the pedigree/bloodline can be top notch, but if the dog was trained in a screwed up manner, God have mercy on the poor ppl that comes into it's path, you would end up with a screwed up dog, who's constantly confused/afraid. CrazyMad

This by no means that a puppy would be easier, the commitment to the well being, both mentally and physically is of paramount importance, as I do not want any pup that comes into my home to end up a vegetable because of my doing. The commitment for training and health would definitely be higher, as imprinting and basics are instilled then. Alot of work oooohhhhh CrazyCool

Therefore, I'm still keeping my option open. reading about pedigrees and trying to get in touch with as many working line trainers/breeders. The two foreign sites that i frequent are www.leerburg.com and www.k9kamp.com, these two knows what their doing. Ed Frawley is one tough no nonsense dude. Pirate

regards.


(This post was edited by wildgunsr on Oct 1, 2003, 6:24 AM)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 1, 2003, 7:03 AM

Post #110 of 251 (7169 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi wildgunsr,

Quote:
"Yup I've owned (my dad actually) 3 GSDs, two fr working line and one show line."
===================================
So U currently owned 2 workingline GSD ? so where did U get ur workingline GSD . .? ?


Quote:
"I don't ask for much just one with sire and dam with a Koerklasse I, VA, IPO, FH, PSP II, SchH III, and ZPr. "
=====================================
Wht I look for in GSD is KKL1 for temperament & working drv ! Wink


Quote:
"What's the diff. bet. bloodlines and pedigree? Wouldn't they be the same?
=====================================
Of course there r difference ! ! Laugh, every individual dog temperament is difference, take for example if we were to compare the working GSD from DDR wt Czech, well generally speaking the Czech line should be harder & have more rank issue but of course they r exception to the rule . . . that is why serious breeders study bloodline.....so when they want a certain trait to bring in to their breeding program, they will know which dog bloodline to look for....!


Quote:
"As for temperament, dominant dogs are a big no no, a hard dog with sufficient drives. And the intelligence to know that not every running/moving object is a prey. Only strike on command. Basically I want a guard/protection dog."
=====================================
Well when U go to pick up ur pup just remember not to choose the alpha pup , ok ! Tongue and as for intelligence to choose its prey . . . .well the key to this is socialisation & training ...! Basically workingline GSD is a natural good guard dog with or w/o Protection training . . . so as long we dun screw up its training , they should do just fine ! Wink


Quote :
"Thus, I'm leaving my options open. Either an adult bitch (potential breeding) or a puppy. "
=====================================
Sorry to ask this but r U planning to start a small kennel or breeding program....? Shocked ... Well first of all do u know serious workingline breeder normally will look for the most dominant dog/bitch with serious working drv for their breeding program...but U did not,Tongue ...& secondly will U be thinking of training the dog up to at least ScH 1 or even just BH level so that U will be able to evaluate his working & breeding potential ...? ...I'm not discorouging U here, but just so U know being a breeder require a life long of dedication & effort and this is especially true if U wanna be a workingline GSD breeder ...!


Quote:
"Therefore, I'm still keeping my option open. reading about pedigrees and trying to get in touch with as many working line trainers/breeders. "
=====================================
Well that's the spirit ! Tongue . . . research & read as much as possible , & if there is anything u wanna ask maybe u can pose ur query in this board so that other members who know may be able to help U , this way everybody will be able to share & learn at the same time...! Cool


Quote:
"Ed Frawley is one tough no nonsense dude."
YES..! but he is also a "Business Man"...! Wink


BTW U can e-mail at :


Polluxx






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 1, 2003, 7:05 AM)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 1, 2003, 5:35 PM

Post #111 of 251 (7163 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So U currently owned 2 workingline GSD ? so where did U get ur workingline GSD . .? ?
====================================================== 'I've owned' la fren...now no more. The pedigree is somewhere in my house if not already thrown away, as these dogs were kept more than 10 years back. Unimpressed

Quote:
Wht I look for in GSD is KKL1 for temperament & working drv ! Wink ================================================== Exactly!!! WinkCool


Quote:
Of course there r difference ! ! Laugh, every individual dog temperament is difference, take for example if we were to compare the working GSD from DDR wt Czech, well generally speaking the Czech line should be harder & have more rank issue but of course they r exception to the rule . . . that is why serious breeders study bloodline.....so when they want a certain trait to bring in to their breeding program, they will know which dog bloodline to look for....!
==================================================== Still doesn't explain the diff. bet. pedigree and bloodline Crazy

Quote:
Well when U go to pick up ur pup just remember not to choose the alpha pup , ok ! Tongue and as for intelligence to choose its prey . . . .well the key to this is socialisation & training ...! Basically workingline GSD is a natural good guard dog with or w/o Protection training . . . so as long we dun screw up its training , they should do just fine ! Wink
===================================================== Wink

Quote :
Sorry to ask this but r U planning to start a small kennel or breeding program....? Shocked ... Well first of all do u know serious workingline breeder normally will look for the most dominant dog/bitch with serious working drv for their breeding program...but U did not,Tongue ...& secondly will U be thinking of training the dog up to at least ScH 1 or even just BH level so that U will be able to evaluate his working & breeding potential ...? ...I'm not discorouging U here, but just so U know being a breeder require a life long of dedication & effort and this is especially true if U wanna be a workingline GSD breeder ...!
====================================================== No need to apologise mate. No I'm not ready to start a kennel, as the resources and commitment need is a 'don't pray pray' stage. Thus, not now. Maybe later when I'm more enept with the breed.

Quote:
Well that's the spirit ! Tongue . . . research & read as much as possible , & if there is anything u wanna ask maybe u can pose ur query in this board so that other members who know may be able to help U , this way everybody will be able to share & learn at the same time...! Cool
===================================================== Thanks for the encouragement Smile

Quote:
"Ed Frawley is one tough no nonsense dude."
YES..! but he is also a "Business Man"...! Wink
====================================================== I kinda sensed that as well....

BTW U can e-mail at : ============================================= You've got mail!!


Regards Wildgunsr@puppy.com.my



Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 1, 2003, 8:47 PM

Post #112 of 251 (7156 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi wildgunsr,

Quote:
Of course there r difference ! ! Laugh, every individual dog temperament is difference, take for example if we were to compare the working GSD from DDR wt Czech, well generally speaking the Czech line should be harder & have more rank issue but of course they r exception to the rule . . . that is why serious breeders study bloodline.....so when they want a certain trait to bring in to their breeding program, they will know which dog bloodline to look for....!
==================================================== Still doesn't explain the diff. bet. pedigree and bloodline Crazy
=======================================================



PSD....where R U.....? ? ? need help here la...? Blush pai seh..!



Polluxx






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 1, 2003, 9:28 PM

Post #113 of 251 (7152 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

Having prob with my laptop lah! Almost explode already....Tongue

I think you handled the forum pretty well here Sly

Anyway this is my comment.

Pedigree and bloodline means nothing if the dog is shitty. You should see what you want from the dog you plan to get. If it is for guard reason, get one that has the drives to do the work. In 8 weeks puppy many things can be seen with good pair of eyes already.

Secondly, big dog or puppy?

big dog everything can be seen. Puppy is only as good as your training + Genetics. Get the best genetically abled dog with wrong training and handling will become fear biter. While if I have a fair dog who is soft, I can still make it into a serious working dog that does the job perfectly. So before you go and get the best of the best, see our own level and honestly evaluate our ownself first. Then decide on the dog.

For a beginer, put pedigree and bloodlines aside. Good bloodlines too have many bad dogs. Get one with good temprement, medium or low dominance and good prey drive (for sports person). Learn from this dog and once your level is up then you can attempt extreeme dogs. Don't go the other way around else you get bitten in the buttocks Tongue

Breeding should never be attempted no matter how nice the pedigree is unless the dog is fully tested in its working drives, hip scored and approved by experienced person.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

(This post was edited by PSD on Oct 1, 2003, 9:34 PM)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 1, 2003, 9:49 PM

Post #114 of 251 (7150 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr, Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"I don't ask for much just one with sire and dam with a Koerklasse I, VA, IPO, FH, PSP II, SchH III, and ZPr. "


There are some good bitches whom are not titled, this is only a guide. My advice is to see the puppy and his behaviour to know what you definately get. Parents is just an estimated guess.


Quote
"As for temperament, dominant dogs are a big no no, a hard dog with sufficient drives. And the intelligence to know that not every running/moving object is a prey. Only strike on command. Basically I want a guard/protection dog."


To get a good guard dog you need them to be civil and defense oriented. No need extensive prey inprints. As long as the dog has good temprement with a degree of sharpness will be a good guard dog.
4-6 months puppies will show those traits already. A guard dog primary objective is to scare away the potential crook. To teach the dog to bite a man is all together another thing. It is not a fad. This comes with responsibility or you will end up with a lawsuit. You need to have perfect control over the dog at all times in all situations. This needs special training and special handling ability. No short cuts, handler must be willing to spend time and efforts here.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

(This post was edited by PSD on Oct 1, 2003, 10:00 PM)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 1, 2003, 10:36 PM

Post #115 of 251 (7142 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileThe great one has spoken. Cool

You said all the keywords man, observation, a keen eye, guestimation from parents...all these when selecting a puppy. what bout when selecting a dog?

When I do get one, can I call upon any of you "PSD, Azman and Polluxx" to help me test/select? Seriously, what kind of eye does this Apek has lah? Besides your typical china apek eyes (in fact, i think they have nicer eyes)?

What are the chances of the breeder/trainer letting you make a copy of the pedigree for you to do some research? Anybody can PM me to tell me where I can find excellent breeders that won't really mind me.

If you have to ask you most prolly can't afford itPirateCrazy: but heck I'm gonna ask anyway, What's the normal budget for a well bred working GSD? Smile


Kowpa
Member

Oct 1, 2003, 11:04 PM

Post #116 of 251 (7139 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

R u serious in getting a working dog a train one or untrain with title or without and what is your budget tis is important is my answer


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 1, 2003, 11:10 PM

Post #117 of 251 (7138 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

there are pros and cons to getting a trained or untrained dog. Titles are just tittles, they mean nothing. What I want is the drives, temparaments and soundness of the dog.My options remain open until the day I find the right dog, be it a pup or a dog. The fundamentals are more important than the age of the dog.Smile

As seen before, show dogs are also tittled, but when push comes to shove, rarely are they up to it.

If you wish to send anything commercial i suggest you email me at wildgunsr@puppy.com.my

Regards Cool


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 2, 2003, 12:34 AM

Post #118 of 251 (7132 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
SmileThe great one has spoken. Cool


Who? Where??Shocked


Quote
You said all the keywords man, observation, a keen eye, guestimation from parents...all these when selecting a puppy. what bout when selecting a dog?


When selecting puppy do puppy test, when selecting dog do dog test loh! Tongue OK! seriously, I don't know what you are really looking for. Different types of dog test for diffrent situation. In order not to go too far ahead I would generalise that we want to see confidence in a dog, good nerve and temprement and clear headedness. React only under threat. When you are into training then you will see it and knows what I mean.


Quote
When I do get one, can I call upon any of you "PSD, Azman and Polluxx" to help me test/select? Seriously, what kind of eye does this Apek has lah? Besides your typical china apek eyes (in fact, i think they have nicer eyes)?


Who is the apek you mean? Me? You test before you buy not buy then test. I think you terbalik liao.


Quote
What are the chances of the breeder/trainer letting you make a copy of the pedigree for you to do some research? Anybody can PM me to tell me where I can find excellent breeders that won't really mind me.


Good breeder tells you the line(not that everyone know how to appreciate) Sometimes they advertise on their site or such. Let say if you do come to me as a buyer asking for a whole bunch of papers. I would say thank you very much. All my pups are already sold.....pun intended.Unimpressed Reason being

1) do your research and by referal of another of this breeder before you approach him you should already have some basic knowledge of him.

2) do your own study and decide if you have the confidence on a breeder before approaching him

3) have a sincere conversation to ask for anything you don't understand

4) never sound like you don't trust or doubtful of their lines.

Remember, good breeder breeds out of passion for the breed. Money is not the most important thing for him. He don't have to make that sale and believe me if he sense any doubts or not sure of anyone, he won't be selling.


Quote
heck I'm gonna ask anyway, What's the normal budget for a well bred working GSD?


Kowpa does have his points. All in the eye of the beholder. You must decide if you want to spend 100K on a kick ass dog or 1K for a mongrel? All I can tell you is that show dogs puppies go for 1800-2500 as a general market price. Working dogs all depends on the drives.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 2, 2003, 1:05 AM

Post #119 of 251 (7128 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

  

Quote
Who? Where??Shocked


Modest pulak... Wink

Quote
When selecting puppy do puppy test, when selecting dog do dog test loh! Tongue OK! seriously, I don't know what you are really looking for. Different types of dog test for diffrent situation. In order not to go too far ahead I would generalise that we want to see confidence in a dog, good nerve and temprement and clear headedness. React only under threat. When you are into training then you will see it and knows what I mean.

For selecting puppy I only know of several test i.e
  1. The curiousity of the pup when you arrive, running to and investigating the new person
  2. The pinch test
  3. The seperation test
  4. The loud noise test
  5. The prey test
  6. Anymore??
What's the dog test ah?


Quote
Who is the apek you mean? Me? You test before you buy not buy then test. I think you terbalik liao.

Apek = me lahhhhhh.... Wink. Obviously do test before buy mah Pirate What I meant was would any of you guys be willing to accompany me when requested upon after i 'set my eye' on a pup/dog, to give some opinions.


Quote
Good breeder tells you the line(not that everyone know how to appreciate) Sometimes they advertise on their site or such. Let say if you do come to me as a buyer asking for a whole bunch of papers. I would say thank you very much. All my pups are already sold.....pun intended.Unimpressed Reason being
1) do your research and by referal of another of this breeder before you approach him you should already have some basic knowledge of him.
2) do your own study and decide if you have the confidence on a breeder before approaching him
3) have a sincere conversation to ask for anything you don't understand
4) never sound like you don't trust or doubtful of their lines.
Remember, good breeder breeds out of passion for the breed. Money is not the most important thing for him. He don't have to make that sale and believe me if he sense any doubts or not sure of anyone, he won't be selling.


Ok, so we need to do some research first before we approach any breeder, that makes sense. But how do we go about doing this? Where do we start? Ask him the Sire and Dam? The line? CrazyCrazyCrazy


Quote
Kowpa does have his points. All in the eye of the beholder. You must decide if you want to spend 100K on a kick ass dog or 1K for a mongrel? All I can tell you is that show dogs puppies go for 1800-2500 as a general market price. Working dogs all depends on the drives.



Tittles don't really mean anything if I'm not getting an adult dog. If I'm getting an adult dog, no necessary that it has to be tittled, I rather see the dog in action myself Smile.

Yes, showlines are, in fact, going from 1.4k to 2.5k. I've known working GSDs going for RM500!!! Crazy..FULLY TRAINED!!Crazy To good to be true eh? Hrmm...maybe because the dog was slightly older about 3 yrs old and seller and buyer were both gila working GSD. It was a fine guard dog until the day it died. God bless her soul.


(This post was edited by wildgunsr on Oct 2, 2003, 1:23 AM)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 2, 2003, 1:21 AM

Post #120 of 251 (7125 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Modest pulak... Wink ]


Bro. Not modest but tak boleh accept lah. Title is too heavy already. Many more person here who is greater.


Quote
For selecting puppy I only know of several test i.e
  1. The curiousity of the pup when you arrive, running to and investigating the new person
  2. The pinch test
  3. The seperation test
  4. The loud noise test
  5. The prey test
  6. Anymore??



I think you got it aldy.


Quote
Apek = me lahhhhhh.... Wink. Obviously do test before buy mah Pirate What I meant was would any of you guys be willing to accompany me when requested upon after i 'set my eye' on a pup/dog, to give some opinions.


I think we may be too spread out to do that. Unless you get more personal and buddy buddy with someone before they willing to divert from their busy schedule. When you mention APEK how young r u?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 2, 2003, 1:29 AM

Post #121 of 251 (7126 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

btw, where is this Polluxx ah? so senyap wan today....got secret agenda kot Wink

Maybe lah...well, this is where new friendships are born and common interest of friends grow Laugh

how old? Oh compared to you, I should be quite old. One day my fren, when we go out TT/yam char, if the opportunity arises, you shall know. Wink


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 2, 2003, 4:53 AM

Post #122 of 251 (7111 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr, PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ,

Well 1st thing 1t, Wildgunsr , may I know wht U looking for ? ?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
"What I want is the drives, temparaments and soundness of the dog.My options remain open until the day I find the right dog, be it a pup or a dog. The fundamentals are more important than the age of the dog."
------------------------------------------------------------
..... do bear wt me coz I'm a bit confused here...; Crazy
a.) if U R looking for a pup, well maybe U can test for the drv & instinct , but temperament & soundness of the dog develops over time as he/she grow and in this case environment & how she is raised plays a very important part in her development...!


b.) and if R U looking for a trained dog who can be a good guard dog...? ? how will U define the he/she is the Right dog, . . . . The way I see it, it is thru rearing, training & playing that u get ur "RIGHT" dog, in my case I believe if I can Bond with my dog then he/she is my right dog..... I dun thk we will be able to purchase that...! ! Wink Wht do U think ? ?




Quote :
"where is this Polluxx ah? so senyap wan today....got secret agenda kot "
-----------------------------------------------------------
Working la.....! Unimpressed


BTW I thk PSD got a point , not all breeders care where their litter goes to ? Breeder who screened their potential buyer r those who r concerned & care for their breed, they definitely dun wan their pups to land in the wrong hand....and this more so for working GSD breeder who should be more discerning when it comes to screening their pup's buyer ! coz workingline GSD is definitely not suitable for everybody....Wink


Still I believe , IF... U thru ur query & discusssion can forge a relationship with the breeder, I m sure he should have no problem selling his pup to U.


And as for testing for a grown dog , well if U can find a good breeder I m sure he will definitely be able to tell U abt the pro & con of the dog that take ur fancy , also should be able to offer his advice & guide U along....after all it is his own dog & should know better than any other ppl... . . . this is much better than getting any old 'Apek' to follow & help U to choose la..! Tongue


Quote :
"Ok, so we need to do some research first before we approach any breeder, that makes sense. But how do we go about doing this? Where do we start? Ask him the Sire and Dam? The line? "
-----------------------------------------------------------
By asking the breeder la of course ! unless U ask him w/o doing any research then of course he will be angry for wasting his time...! Anyway I'm sure . . .any breeder worth his salt will not mind were U to ask to take a look at the parents pedigree ? If they do mind walk away....simple as that...! At least I will....Cool ..!



Polluxx






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 2, 2003, 6:55 AM

Post #123 of 251 (7107 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
..... do bear wt me coz I'm a bit confused here...; Crazy
a.) if U R looking for a pup, well maybe U can test for the drv & instinct , but temperament & soundness of the dog develops over time as he/she grow and in this case environment & how she is raised plays a very important part in her development...!


b.) and if R U looking for a trained dog who can be a good guard dog...? ? how will U define the he/she is the Right dog, . . . . The way I see it, it is thru rearing, training & playing that u get ur "RIGHT" dog, in my case I believe if I can Bond with my dog then he/she is my right dog..... I dun thk we will be able to purchase that...! ! Wink Wht do U think ? ?


I'll bear with you, just as long as you DON'T BARE ALL infront of me!!!! CrazyAngelic Simply terms, I want a guard dog. More complicated terms, that is the EXACT reason why I'm leaving my options open. If I do get a pup, I can ensure its temperament & soundness through proper developement and try my level best to train it to be an excellent guard/protection dog.BlushCool If i get an adult dog, I'll have to rely 90% on what the breeder/trainer tells me...if he's unscrupolous then I had it lah. I would define the 'right' dog is one that knows where it stands in the family, it's duties and responsibilities. The rest of the 10% or so, would be through my observation and what I learn letter about the dog if I do get it.Crazy


Quote
BTW I thk PSD got a point , not all breeders care where their litter goes to ? Breeder who screened their potential buyer r those who r concerned & care for their breed, they definitely dun wan their pups to land in the wrong hand....and this more so for working GSD breeder who should be more discerning when it comes to screening their pup's buyer ! coz workingline GSD is definitely not suitable for everybody.... Still I believe , IF... U thru ur query & discusssion can forge a relationship with the breeder, I m sure he should have no problem selling his pup to U. And as for testing for a grown dog , well if U can find a good breeder I m sure he will definitely be able to tell U abt the pro & con of the dog that take ur fancy , also should be able to offer his advice & guide U along....after all it is his own dog & should know better than any other ppl... . . . this is much better than getting any old 'Apek' to follow & help U to choose la..!


Exactly, therefore finding a breeder who I'm comfortable with is tough. I'm choosy and picky, if I'm getting a working GSD I wanna be sure, I'm getting the best that's available before committing. Crazy. This makes this an extremely patient journey. I don't want a business man, but it must be noted that a transaction definitely involves money, I rather have a breeder sell me a dog because of the trust that I'll not destroy he's pride and joy and he's not taking me as a 'water fish'!

Quote
By asking the breeder la of course ! unless U ask him w/o doing any research then of course he will be angry for wasting his time...! Anyway I'm sure . . .any breeder worth his salt will not mind were U to ask to take a look at the parents pedigree ? If they do mind walk away....simple as that...! At least I will....Cool ..!


That's why, I would be extremely appreciative if the sifus here can show me the rope Wink

Regards wildgunsr@puppy.com.my


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 2, 2003, 8:28 PM

Post #124 of 251 (7092 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Wildgunsr,

First and foremost I don't claim to be any sifu at any standard. Let me see haw I may help to comment here.


Quote
Simply terms, I want a guard dog. More complicated terms, that is the EXACT reason why I'm leaving my options open. If I do get a pup, I can ensure its temperament & soundness through proper developement and try my level best to train it to be an excellent guard/protection dog.BlushCool If i get an adult dog, I'll have to rely 90% on what the breeder/trainer tells me...if he's unscrupolous then I had it lah. I would define the 'right' dog is one that knows where it stands in the family, it's duties and responsibilities. The rest of the 10% or so, would be through my observation and what I learn letter about the dog if I do get it.Crazy


Guard dog, ok. So why keep your options open? Just agree that you are into guard dog and look for a guard dog properties simpler this way. There are easier way to find the Guard Dog than to find a good SchH dog. You also seam to want to know more but yet you are being extreemly gunshy of people cheating you. For an adult dog you are afraid that the trainer screwed him up but look at it this way, for a dog who can get those (you mentioned useless) titles, they have to have something in them to pass. Unless it is a show dog, Yes I agree their methods may be unthordox way this is why you need to see the dog and from the eye contact and your feel you will know if this dog exudes the confidence. I can tell you it is a good dog but you must follow your own feel too. Therefore Unless you are into serious training and are having the commitment to pursue the higher training for your would be protector, no one can teach you things in one day where it took them years and years to observe. If I read you correctly you want a wonder dog that is the best ever dog in Malaysia......? I don't think you will ever reach any deal to your liking if you pursue your goals this way. Your aim should be first look for a reasonable nerved, good tempremented dog from a working line. Learn to train it and learn from it. Then if you want to go further then you can upgrade and chose the dog of your liking with what you already learned from your previous dog. This should be your method in getting inducted.


Quote
Exactly, therefore finding a breeder who I'm comfortable with is tough. I'm choosy and picky, if I'm getting a working GSD I wanna be sure, I'm getting the best that's available before committing. Crazy. This makes this an extremely patient journey. I don't want a business man, but it must be noted that a transaction definitely involves money, I rather have a breeder sell me a dog because of the trust that I'll not destroy he's pride and joy and he's not taking me as a 'water fish'!


unfortunately, good breeders are far and few for working lines GSD's here. Most of the time it is not only you feeling comfortable with them, they want to feel comfortable with you too. therefore you need to have some trust based on your own gut feel and peoples recomendation. I'm sure no breeder would like to feel at the first meeting that they are being looked at guilty of a waterfish catcher until proven innocent if they are not one to start with. Hope you catch the drift. You could always not continue with the deal if you dont like what you see.

As for showing you the rope? I don't think anyone can help you more than what is written in this thread already. Work on your approach, I believe everyone can appreciate a sincere humble enquiry anytime. Breeders that are comfortable with you can give you more tips also this wayTongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 2, 2003, 9:14 PM

Post #125 of 251 (7087 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

ok ok, I'll stop calling u Sifu. Wait a sec, I didn't say the titles were useless, I said it doesn't really mean much if I was getting a pup. But if i got a guard adult dog, then lain cerita lah.

Thank you for the tips PSD.

btw, lets say that this dog is in a kennel with its view blocked from my gate, someone approach my gate, she starts barking and after barking she whines abit. What are the possibilities? Distress cuz she can't see what's going on? getting nervous cuz can't see?

If you were at the Eukunuba dog show, there was one veteran GSD that was on show, I realised that it was whinning VERY loudly when it was at the exhibitors ground, what's your take on that?


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 2, 2003, 9:49 PM

Post #126 of 251 (6310 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Wait a sec, I didn't say the titles were useless, I said it doesn't really mean much if I was getting a pup. But if i got a guard adult dog, then lain cerita lah.


Mr Gun,

You have to remember what you write....if you scroll up a bit you will see your reply to Kowpa that "titles is titles and means nothing"Tongue

BTW, I think you are too far ahead of yourself. How can a puppy have titles? You are not making much sense here bro.....and now you seams to want titled guard dog. Hope you already decided what you want though...Smile


Quote
Thank you for the tips PSD.


My pleasure


Quote
btw, lets say that this dog is in a kennel with its view blocked from my gate, someone approach my gate, she starts barking and after barking she whines abit. What are the possibilities? Distress cuz she can't see what's going on? getting nervous cuz can't see?


I shall not say more of what I cannot see. Can't help you here.


Quote
If you were at the Eukunuba dog show, there was one veteran GSD that was on show, I realised that it was whinning VERY loudly when it was at the exhibitors ground, what's your take on that?


Was not at the show but lemme guess......he wants to come out? maybe he is holding his pee too long....lolWink Anyway bro, this is out of topic and is not of any good. If you want to know more maybe you can start a new topic on why a dog whines. Perhaps you will get more people to join in there.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mhazman
Member

Oct 2, 2003, 10:14 PM

Post #127 of 251 (6309 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Guys,

I would agree with PSD focusing on what you need co'z you'll achieve your destination faster.
Guard dog is just one step above watch dog. Most dogs with some degree of sharpness will make good watch dogs. Then with age, maturity and courage ( if its there) defense will start building up. Hopefully the dog is not agitated beyond its avoidence threshold and have its confidence busted.
If you have money to spare then you can import the likes of Stormfront Brawnson, Bastin Kokeltal or Orry v h antverpa..

Azman


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 8, 2003, 5:55 AM

Post #128 of 251 (6282 views)
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Re: [All] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi guys,

Chk this out WUSV 2003 results :
=====================================
Individual Winners
1. Reijo Lattu + Xabarovsk Bacteroides (Finland)
99-91-96 = 286
2. Ina Rosswag* + Attaque v.d. Adelegg (Germany)
99-93-94 = 286
3. P.L.Gutierrez + Bac v. Gotweiher (Spain)
99-95-92 = 286

* - Ina and "Attaque" r the recent 2003 BSP Champ
& guess what ! , Ina also happen to be a lady handler - I guess this is wht U call "Girl Power"

Team Winners:
------------------
1. Sweden 848
2. Germany 847
3. Czech Republic 841
====================================

Boy ! am I surprised , to see a Swedish team on the podium let alone a winner.


PSD, U must be surprised by this (at least I were !) but chk this : 2003 WUSV Champ
Xabarovsk Bacteroides 's dam's line is out of
-79' VA5 Lasso di Val Sole & Varo von Arminius (80')

errr . . . ? ? ? I meant...a ScH competitor maybe yes...but a WUSV winner . . ? well....






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 8, 2003, 7:01 AM

Post #129 of 251 (6281 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

Yes I am indeed pleasantly surprised that Sweden made it. 3rd or 4th placing I would expect but 1st is a plesent surprise indeed. Wanted to post this here also but guess you beat me to it....lol.

I love to see germany edged out of the 1st placing by this rookie team since they are considerably new to this. Was surprised USA never had anyone there.

Look at the points though, they are all very close meaning the competition and standards were very high level.

Attaque Adelegg, was the recent BSP winner. I guess this is what I call consistency. I think in Lubeck in 2002 he places only 31 with 278. I'm not sure about the other 2 dogs. Not familiar to me.

Anyway, for a wusv winner they have to be some dog thereSmile Anyway, not all dogs are 100% in form for the competition. This is why I am perticularly impressed with attaque for doing it twice in a row from BSP to WUSV and great to see a women there too.......I hope more malaysian wemen will step forward into SchH interest from now with this news. Then hopefully ppl will no longer brand me as harsh Guardog Corporal....lolTongue Congratulations to Ina Rosswag

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 9, 2003, 6:37 AM

Post #130 of 251 (6267 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,


Back to my earlier post on the Finn dog, it seems that up to late 70s, the VA dogs can still produce progeny wt enuf drv....Tongue. Wht's ur take ? ?

BTW it seems this is the 2nd Finn Champ in the recent yrs, there were another one back in 97' ! I thk there is much effort put in ScH in the Scandinavian countries ! ! Cool


Quote :
"Attaque Adelegg, was the recent BSP winner. I guess this is what I call consistency. I think in Lubeck in 2002 he places only 31 with 278"
------------------------------------------------------\
Yup. . . . 31st place but based on his score detail, protection routine of 92 pts & tracking an excellence 99 pts, I would say a very good score indeed ! Cool


Quote:
"hope more malaysian wemen will step forward into SchH interest from now with this news."
--------------------------------------------------------
Yes, Corporal....we definitely need to see more women interest in this sports !... Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 9, 2003, 6:59 AM

Post #131 of 251 (6266 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hee hee, Polluxx my man...Still trying to get me to comment on show standards VA eh?.....You know lah! This is a stress area for me..lol....anyway for your knowledge. 1 working dog in Czech got VA recently with no Showlines blood. I guess like showlines sometimes has a minute chance (1 in a million maybe) to throw off a misfit whom can actually work.....workinglines too have the ablity to throw off working dog with VA structure....lol....

Nevertheless VA 70 years ago and VA today is way different. Look at klodo v. boxberg, roland v starkenburg, hettel uckermark, Erich v Grafenwerth, Utz v. Haus Schutting, Pfeffer v. Bern...etc.....What do you get? If those dogs are put into today's show rings do you think they will get to become Seigers? opps maybe not even qualified to be in the ring altogether....well I bet the show people will use this as their victory statement that they had successfully improved the breed already since then....lol...BTW, those names are great working dogs then too...hehe

Seriously I don't know much about the other 2 dogs to be able to comment effectively.

Yo Captain Polluxx, when is your wife joining the SchH Training?....heheheh!

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 9, 2003, 7:04 AM

Post #132 of 251 (6263 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

Do you have MSN Messenger? If have hook me up at


PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 9, 2003, 7:30 AM

Post #133 of 251 (6261 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Sorry la ! didn't know I'm stressing our dear "Coporal" wt my persistent show query ! Cool


So where is this Czech wt VA title ? I'm most curious, my fren ? hopefully he doesn't come wt the "U know wht" topline, man ! Tongue


Quote:
""Nevertheless VA 70 years ago and VA today is way different. Look at klodo v. boxberg, roland v starkenburg, hettel uckermark, Erich v Grafenwerth, Utz v. Haus Schutting, Pfeffer v. Bern...etc.....What do you get? If those dogs are put into today's show rings do you think they will get to become Seigers?""
----------------------------------------------------------
The current "highline" ppl might might not fancy them Mad !, But give it to the working breeders , I fancy that our GSD might have a chance to stay on as a best utility/service/military dog to the next century. Smile As H.Raiser himself mentioned, if we have known A.I. earlier how many of us would have clamoured to have the line of B-Lierberg and also the other greats of yesteryears...Unsure....! !


Quote :
"when is your wife joining the SchH Training?...."
-----------------------------------------------------------
When the grip is firm ! ! LOL ...LaughLaugh






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 9, 2003, 7:35 AM)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 9, 2003, 7:54 AM

Post #134 of 251 (6258 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Not only VA... he is full black too. Won that in Slovak specialty show. Nope the topline is nice...ahem...don't usually get me saying that .....lol I amnot familiar with the line but someone told me it is a full working ped. All outcrossing product so I donno if he can re-produce the structure well. I was also told the drive is super....something like a super dog to me.

Pssstt! Those seigers in the 70ties dont have to bring them back, Can see them in my house. My bitch just looked exactly liked them....har har har.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 10, 2003, 5:24 AM

Post #135 of 251 (6246 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Hei....! Shocked I didn't know that they give out VA title other than in a Sieger Show like in Germany, Italy or USA. Anyway do U know where I can peep at his pic (do e-mail me, Tongue) !

Seriously is it VA, kind of hard to believe ! Sly, I meant there r quite a nos. of V-rated working dogs but a VA.....well unless of course Raiser got his post back & happened to be the judge ! Wink ....I know - I know, just wishful thinking on my part......! Tongue

BTW was the judge from Kaiserland ? ? jeez...maybe is the same Freddie guy who is coming to town this weekend.... LOL.LaughLaugh ..! ! ....if true can even bring ur 70's Sieger look alike to the show la,...maybe got chance la ! ! TongueBlush

p/s....maybe can even get Azman to tag along....just imagine in a sea of tan/black(saddle) ... u see this two sable looking dogs he-he ! LaughLaughCool . . . I can just imagine the look of the organiser face...! SlyLaugh ! !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 10, 2003, 5:11 PM

Post #136 of 251 (6242 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

Wah i think the conversation between u and PSD is a bit too techincal for me and i guess many more out there.

OK let me initiate this, do u think is a good idea to 'decipher' the following :-

1. SV
2. WUSV
3. VA
4. DDR
5. zPS
6. Seiger
7. IPO
8. ZPr
9. KKL1
10. FH
11. PSP II
12. BSP Champ

I think enough for the time being lah...hehehhe paisehBlushCrazy

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 10, 2003, 9:19 PM

Post #137 of 251 (6237 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Boon,

Must apologise for the confusion here, anywhere will try to explain some of the initial we used here : Tongue

SV = Verein fur Deutsche Schaferhunde
(German Shepherd Dog Club Of Germany)

WUSV = die Weltunion der Schäferhundvereine
(World Union of GSD Club) headed by SV

VA = Vorzuglich-Auslee (The very best among the
excellence)

DDR= Deutsche Demokratische Republik
(East Germany)

zPS = also refers as former Czechoslovakian
Army’s 'Pohranicni Straze' (Border Patrol)
kennel.

Sieger = VA 1 , the no.1 male dog of the annual SV
Sieger Show , (female = Siegerin)

IPO = Internationale Prufungsordnung ; an international version of ScH trial wt slighly different rules.

ZPr = Zuchtprufung , breed suitabilty test, dogs must pass this test before they r allowed to breed
(for rottweiler = Ztp)

KKL = KorKlasse , Breed Survey Class (1, 2, 3) wt
KKL 1 as the best

FH = Fahrtenhund , Tracking Title (FH 1,2 ,3)

PSP = Polizeischutzhundprufung , policedog which
excel in man-work (PSP I, II)

BSP = Bundessiegerprufung, German national ScH
competition for GSD
(BSP Champ = Top working dog, winner of the
BSP competition)


I hope the above will cleared some of the confusion ! Wink....






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 10, 2003, 9:31 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 10, 2003, 9:32 PM

Post #138 of 251 (6234 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hi Boon,

Must apologise for the confusion here, anywhere will try to explain some of the initial we used here : Tongue

WUSV = die Weltunion der Schäferhundvereine
(World Union of GSD Club) headed by SV *** u mean SV & WUSV is something like FCI & AKC and other affiliate ?

VA = Vorzuglich-Auslee (The very best among the
excellence)
*** VA is the title for the dog or ?
Sieger = VA 1 , the no.1 male dog of the annual SV
Sieger Show , (female = Siegerin) *** Seiger Show is a sport like SchH, tracking and some otehr protection work, herding or Dog show ?

KKL = KorKlasse , Breed Survey Class (1, 2, 3) wt
KKL 1 as the best
*** What is breed survey class ? Blush
FH = Fahrtenhund , Tracking Title (FH 1,2 ,3) *** Tracking and SchH not the same ? I though SchH inclusive tracking also


Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


mhazman
Member

Oct 10, 2003, 11:43 PM

Post #139 of 251 (6230 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Boon,

Go get your working GSD faster laaa.. Then we can make it more interesting...

PSD,
The dog in the Slovak sieger you mentioned.. Is it Anouc ... solid black GSD If its him, I think he got V4.


Anybody's going to Padang Merbok tommorow ?
Who knows a workingline can get BIS.. (Wishful thinking...)

Azman


boon
Doggyman


Oct 10, 2003, 11:48 PM

Post #140 of 251 (6228 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

Hahahah, slowly lah, must understand a bit more before get into this, later i got blame that is not the dog no good, but handler problemBlush

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


mhazman
Member

Oct 11, 2003, 12:05 AM

Post #141 of 251 (6226 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Boon,

Have not heard your bonney saying that yet...

rgds

Azman


boon
Doggyman


Oct 11, 2003, 12:12 AM

Post #142 of 251 (6225 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hahha

my Bonney ah...she is totally spoilt already...what to do....Blush

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 11, 2003, 5:23 AM

Post #143 of 251 (6218 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

hi Boon,

Wink

Quote :
"u mean SV & WUSV is something like FCI & AKC and other affiliate ? "
------------------------------------------------------
Not really ! , it is more like WUSV was set up as an organisation for GSD club around the world who wants to be affliated wt SV, and if I'm not mistaken WUSV is headed by SV as well.



Quote:
"*** VA is the title for the dog or ?
Sieger = VA 1 , the no.1 male dog of the annual SV
Sieger Show , (female = Siegerin) *** Seiger Show is a sport like SchH, tracking and some otehr protection work, herding or Dog show ? ""
-------------------------------------------------------
The VA & Sieger title is only for the show dog awarded in the annual Sieger Show. In some countries like Germany US & Italy 's Sieger show ,
In the Sieger show, each dog conformation is closely checked after which they have a short protection work routine to test the dog's nerve. This is followed by a look at the few leading dogs progeny group to see how good each dog produce ! After which the leading dogs are led thru the field to see their movements (trotting). The No. VA dogs each yr is not fixed, for instance this yr there is 11 VA dogs & 10 VA bitch. { VA 1 = Sieger , Siegerin }

Just wanna stressed the VA dogs of recent yrs (last 20-30 yrs) is chosen more for their conformation, plush coat, rather than their working drv & hardness which is required in the field of work such as police/military/even large flock herding dogs.

Since VA dogs r chosen to be leading dogs by SV, they also served as SV blueprint for the breed development direction. That is the reason why the character of of GSD deteriorate over the last 20-30 yrs b'coz when U breed "not so hard dogs" to "not so hard dogs" , U will get dogs who r "not so hard", "soft" or even "shy" dogs (also refer as fear biters).Unimpressed

Hopefully now SV has a new president (who has some working background) things will improve. Anyway just have to wait & see ! Wink


Quote :
"*** What is breed survey class ? "
-------------------------------------------------------
It is also refer as Koer, in which registered GSD in SV Studbooks is brought in front of the Kormeister to be evaluate both for his physical structure (conformation), & temperament. To qualify for breed survey, the dog must have a min of ScH 1 title & a show rating of 'G' (Good) & also passed his AD (20 km endurance run) as well an "a' stamp for his hip certification.

During the breed survey , the GSD is given an overall evaluation & critique. The complete detail of the dog structure is written down such weight, withers height, chest depth & circumference as well as the dog coat colour. This is followed by the description of the animal movement. Then we have the portion of survey dealing wt the dogs temperament & characteristic, where the judge will chk for the dog's nerve, confidence (expression) , alertness, courage & also for gun-steadyness.

KKL 1 - highest qualification of dogs which meet the standard for both structure & character, & r recommend for breeding.

KKL 2 - dogs wt some minor defects in either
a.) structure
b.) temperament - not sufficient courage or
fighting drv
c.) slightly oversize or undersize
d.) missing 1 or 2 teeth

They r cases here dogs r allowed to be re-survey if they failed or KKL2 (to upgrade to KKL 1) but must have the consent of the same 'Kormeister" .


For your info most workingline dogs will just get KKL2
not because of temperament but b'coz of just slight structure deviation from the showline standard. As the temperament test is quite ritual & not that stressful, so most top showline dogs who r not shy will be able to pass.
& get KKl 1




Quote:
"FH = Fahrtenhund , Tracking Title (FH 1,2 ,3) *** Tracking and SchH not the same ? I though SchH inclusive tracking also"
-----------------------------------------------------------
Well some ppl prefer to do just tracking for sport so this is for them , but in any case FH 3 is a far more advanced (harder) tracking trial than ScH or even the AKC's TDX title.


Jeez....I hope that should be able to clear some ur confusion...! Wink

Hey guys, PSD & Azman, where r U ? ? ?Shocked
Gotta help me out here la...! ! got very sore fingers alredi.....Tongue

BTW...Boon, U owe me one bowl of Penang Laksa, at least ! Tongue






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 11, 2003, 5:26 AM)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 11, 2003, 8:56 AM

Post #144 of 251 (6212 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you did great. I wouldn't even know where to start...lol

Boon, any more areas you didn'r inderstand?

BTW, I check again yeah it was V4 and not VA....must be getting old already.

Yo others, write something here and don't just read. No one here bites if the quastions are constructive Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 11, 2003, 9:45 AM

Post #145 of 251 (6209 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

yeah certainly u help to clear not some but a lot of my doubt and confusion. Must print this out for future reference and put in a handy place (my outlook notes).

Penang Laksa ? aiyah.....u come lah....penang anything also can....how about penang char keow teoh, penang rojak, penang hokkien mee and penang banyak lagi..........hahhahahaWink

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


boon
Doggyman


Oct 11, 2003, 9:49 AM

Post #146 of 251 (6208 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

hahah got a lot more, but later lah, let me digest first....must understand more and in general picture before i can go further for my ??????????????????????????? mah.....ok.Wink

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 11, 2003, 7:58 PM

Post #147 of 251 (6204 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure my friend, but eat faster and give more questions. Smile



BTW wonder what happened to Colin? Dissapeared without a trace all of a sudden.Frown

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


colinchin
Enthusiast


Oct 13, 2003, 5:24 PM

Post #148 of 251 (6185 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Morning PSD Smile,

Been a bit tied up with work lately and just came back from Malacca last night. PSD, in your opinion, should one train the dog in obedience first before moving on to protection training ? I get differing opinions and practice.

BTW, PSD and all the working dogs enthusiasts out there, go and check out the announcement at event calendar forum, I have something which could be of interest to you guys.

Keep in touch.

Regards,

Colin


(This post was edited by colinchin on Oct 13, 2003, 5:26 PM)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 13, 2003, 8:26 PM

Post #149 of 251 (6176 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Colin,



There are differing opinions here I know. In my personal liking I like to see dogs overloaded with drives before doing any control work. The reasons is dog in high drive takes OB "handler mistake" better and will not act like the world just ended. If you start with formal OB, without drive work then it will be too late to develop intense drive later...you will have a harder time doing that.

For me, I prefer sociaisation, prey inprinting, bites inprinting, little bit of motivation OB like sit, down and come with food and toy....I will do this continuously until he is graduated to puppy sleeve (I will not want to correct the puppy for OB yet all these while) Then when he is sleeve crazy and bites full, calm and run with prey then I start enforcing OB. This is only my opinion and many trainers have their own differing opinion. You should form your own too. Dog training is not an exact science, it is creative thinking at the best. Anyway you have until the earliest 18 months to 3 years before you trial him so no need to rush the OB if you plan his training correctly.

BTW, have you decided on GSD or Malinois for yourself?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


colinchin
Enthusiast


Oct 13, 2003, 8:47 PM

Post #150 of 251 (6175 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Afternoon PSD,

Thanks for the opinion, you've got a point there. Can I have personal email add. You can contact me at chincolin@hotmail.com

Thanks.

Regards,

Colin


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 13, 2003, 9:15 PM

Post #151 of 251 (5518 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Colin,

You can reach me at

BTW I couldn't find anything in the event you mentioned??? lol B careful not to post anything commercial here. We must understand the webmaster and play some fair rules in his courtyard. At least we should show courtesy to him.Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


colinchin
Enthusiast


Oct 13, 2003, 10:50 PM

Post #152 of 251 (5514 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Afternoon PSD,

Thanks for the reply and about your concern at puppy.com but I wasn't doing anything commercial. I respect the webmaster's courtyard too. BTW, how long have you been into working line GSD ?

Regards,

Colin


(This post was edited by colinchin on Oct 13, 2003, 11:12 PM)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 13, 2003, 11:18 PM

Post #153 of 251 (5510 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Colin Chin,

Good day, i also couldn't find the event u mentioned earlier. By the way where r u from ? Also into working mongrel as well ? GSD? Rott ? Mals ? or others ?

By the way, i think u may want to mail PSD for some questions that u may interested to know and ask.Cool

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Oct 13, 2003, 11:35 PM)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 14, 2003, 12:07 AM

Post #154 of 251 (5507 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Are u a working dog people?? Which working breed do u keep?? busybody eh?


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 14, 2003, 12:51 AM

Post #155 of 251 (5503 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Boon, Sometimes somethings needs to be done off the public board. Anyway if I may assist I would loved to answer all questions in understanding a working dog to the best tht I can. Otherwise others may be able to do tht too. Most of the replies on a public board needs scrutiny and also needs to be studied and thought over. Only use those you felt is logical and works for you. Therefore our own thinking must be used and put into practise to test the theory.

As for me, I don't like limelight too much...blinds my vission...lolTongue but there are people who knows me quite well on this board. I don't think my total credentials spread out on this board helps to achieve the above. Which I'm here to assist the understanding of SchH and working real GSD. Hope you understand my intention.

Perhaps one day we may meet during trials. I would loved to talk more of myself then if you will allow....heheheh! Anyway Colin good to see another working dog person on this board. We surely need more people like you to kick off SchH in Malaysia.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 14, 2003, 6:22 AM

Post #156 of 251 (5490 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kowpa,

So wht abt U , r u interested wt workingline as well ? ? Smile






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 14, 2003, 9:00 AM

Post #157 of 251 (5488 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

yes more than interested


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 14, 2003, 3:29 PM

Post #158 of 251 (5481 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kowpa,

Its good to hear that U r interested ! Smile, I thk it will be easier for other member to addressed your interest if U could maybe kick-start by posing some query ! Wink . . . .so let's hear them ...! Cool !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 14, 2003, 4:38 PM

Post #159 of 251 (5480 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

HI,

yeah agree with u. limelight ? hahahhahah i know lah....ur copyright statement always applies.

So know we have how many that are intersted in SchH ?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 14, 2003, 7:51 PM

Post #160 of 251 (5469 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

I thought FH was a more advance form of tracking compared to SchH's tracking? Where the track is laid much earlier with a couple more turns (can't remember the exact specification). I may be wrong.

FH1= Advance Tracking

FH2= Superior tracking qualification?



btw,

I've noticed titles IP and IPO, are they the same?



PSD, Polluxx,

It has been mentioned that the 'downfall' of the original GSD breed started 20 - 30 years back, in your opinions, how do the SchH titles awarded to working and show GSDs differ? Can it be concluded that working GSDs are of 'better' SchH quality? As in no cheorography, and full of drive and determination when doing the SchH?


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 14, 2003, 7:58 PM

Post #161 of 251 (5466 views)
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Re: [ALL] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

hi guys,Smile

I know this question is probably one of the most petty ones that y'all might've come across. So please excuse me and hope you'll take the time to answer.SmileBlush

What do the titles mean? I mean so far I only know FH1 and FH2 as mentioned earlier.

What abt all the other alphabets? What are their qualifications?

Or are there any websites explaining this?

Thanks in advance.Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



mhazman
Member

Oct 14, 2003, 8:19 PM

Post #162 of 251 (5459 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Guys,

You all can check the titles at
www.workingdogs.com/working_titles.htm

rgds

Azman


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 14, 2003, 8:30 PM

Post #163 of 251 (5457 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you very much Smile
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



boon
Doggyman


Oct 14, 2003, 8:48 PM

Post #164 of 251 (5453 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

Wei...kawan these days seldom see u online, do come and share your knowledge wit newcomer like me more often lahTongue

The site u posted is very informative. Thanz

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 14, 2003, 8:52 PM

Post #165 of 251 (5452 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

RD,

Those are mentioned in the website tht Azman gave to you. Also if you read the this thread, the ones on soo...hoon...(something like tht) from the begining will give you a better information flow into understanding what working GSD is all about. Good luck in your quest.

BTW, your questions is very relevant and not petty IMOSmile Please ask more...look like we now have more resident experts around....to help you.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 14, 2003, 9:09 PM

Post #166 of 251 (5451 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
PSD, Polluxx,

how do the SchH titles awarded to working and show GSDs differ? Can it be concluded that working GSDs are of 'better' SchH quality? As in no cheorography, and full of drive and determination when doing the SchH?



Working lines GSD's get their titles in trials in which the place, helpers are not the normal ones they train with. These helpers are strangers to them and will threaten them to the max by direct eye contact, body posture and such.

Show GSD's gets their titles by choreograph moves in the same field, same helper. The helper is a friend to the dog and that test is a game to them. Therefore a showline SchH 3 dogs could not hope to do well in a stadium of 100,000 people with a different stressful helper. Some show SchH dogs (very minimal) does have what it takes but it is more of a fluke in breeding and they will never be making top levels against working lines in international standard SchH trials.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


boon
Doggyman


Oct 14, 2003, 9:19 PM

Post #167 of 251 (5447 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Find thsi article for early accessing and imprinting of working dogs' puppies. PSD, Polluxx, Kowpa what say u ? Wink




I believe that how a puppy is handled from birth to 16 weeks is critical to their ultimate certification for their intended use.. I am going to give you an outline of how I test my litters and evaluate the puppies. These techniques have worked for me --only 2 of my puppies thus far washed out of any program to which they were targeted. Puppies develop quickly, so each week you must look for something new, thus my initial guidelines are organized by puppy age. By continually offering challenges and tests, at 7 weeks you should know enough about each puppy's suitabilities. At this point early training can begin, with separate sections for puppies selected for patrol versus narcotics and tracking and search/rescue work.

Whelping: Let's start with whelping. My puppies are raised in my bedroom from the day they are born, and handled not only by me but my children of various ages. Doing so helps me start to assess the puppies' temperament right from birth. The puppies are stressed daily for the first 3 weeks. Each person who handles the puppy will hold them differently and you can see which puppy is secure, who is agitated, who is nervous, and who can adjust to different hands. This provides my first indication of which puppies will have the correct nerves to work with the public ,and which puppy can accommodate new situations.

Three weeks: At 3 weeks puppies are given the option to eat some food, usually liver or kidneys as this has a very inciting smell to it. I will put out two dishes and watch to see which puppy uses its nose to find a dish and eat. This simple test shows me who is using their nose and how they use their other senses. Watch to see if they air scent or track the scent closer to the ground. Puppies remember these first impressions, and those who search for their food early on tend to continue with this behavior. By the week's end I am putting only one dish in for the puppies but hiding it under boxes, towels, or newspapers, so I can continually assess how the puppies tackle each new situation. It is also interesting to separate the puppies and set up a maze in which the puppy has to find it's way to the food bowl. The puppy who does this with consistence usually has a great aptitude to use his/her nose and also shows the use of intelligence and problem solving skills.

Four weeks: By the fourth week their hearing has developed sufficiently so I can introduce additional noises to the puppies: dishwasher, vacuum, power washer, vibrations from the dryer. For each experience their mother is available for comfort and to help them with the new experience. Doing so allows the puppies learn to explore new areas but always have a comfort zone to go to. The fourth week is a good time to introduce electronic toys to the puppies--ones that make whirling noises with bright lights flashing on and off are particularly good. I also put in toys that pop up so I can watch how the puppies react to sudden, unexpected changes.

Five weeks: This is when I start to watch the puppies' body language, it is the best time to gauge how they will behave later on in life. We shoot the air guns and watch the tails of the puppies, they can transmit a lot of what the dog is feeling. Is it wagging, stiff, tucked, upright, curly over the back? These are all important indicators of future temperament. A wagging tail shows me a puppy who is curious and willing to take a chance and listen to human directions. A stiff tail held over their back show me a dominant puppy who I would watch for patrol work. A stiff tail semi- tucked is a puppy who works with flight rather then fight drive.

At this time I also put new footing into the puppies' play area, such as cardboard boxes, plastic milk crates, wooden planks, carpeting, linoleum. The different footings help the puppy learn how to adjust its balance, to maneuver its feet and shift its weight. Beginning in the fifth week I also start to weed out my puppies. Puppies who are willing to explore, have good recovery time, and maintain eye contact will be kept. We do puppy agility with the balance beam and low jumps to see how the puppy maneuvers through these obstacles.

Six weeks: At this age we start to assess which puppy has the intensity for narcotics work. To later succeed in such work, the puppies must show they have the endurance needed to work without quitting and the intensity to search until they find the object of their desire. I start by throwing several tennis balls into the puppy pen and watching who picks it up, chases it, or hides it. The next day I use wooden dowels, then PVC piping, then metal spoons--you need a puppy who is curious and willing to pick up different objects. You want a puppy who is willing to play and does not give up, you have to take the object away for them to stop playing. A puppy who is possessive of their object is also an assest for the narcotics program. A inate desire to retrieve and find is what we are looking for at this stage. You might think this is young but a properly breed puppy will shows these drives, they might only surface at the times you are testing but that is enough. I do not leave these objects in with the puppies. I want there playtime to be associated with me only.

Seven weeks: At seven weeks I separate puppies into individual runs. This assures that they do not become pack oriented. This is also when we can start their training. At this point I have tested for and picked the puppy who has had the natural desire to retrieve items thrown for him, who would show possessiveness when he retrieved the items, had good eye contact and showed a willingness to work with his handler. Additionally the puppy should have shown signs it is intelligent and able to think through problems. A dog with tons of ball drive but who cannot think is of no use, he will burn out quickly and not have the stamina to continue. I also do not want the most dominant dog, but rather one in the middle. Lastly, I want a puppy who does not fold under corrections but rather learns and continues to work without holding a grudge. This all might sound like a lot to assess but by seven weeks all this is present in the puppy.

Tracking and search: Now the serious training starts, 10 minutes twice a day. I start to increase the ball drive of the puppy. He must be relentless in his desire to achieve that ball. I will tease him and then place the ball under my foot to see if he digs for it. While he is digging I start to teach the scratch command. Once he digs I will give him the ball as his reward.


Pup in tunnel
Pup on metal stairs
Searching pine needles
Swaying Bridge

I use his drive in different situations to be sure that he is comfortable, using the tunnel for example (first photo). Next we teach the puppies to go up and down open and closed stairs to search for their ball (second photo). We also use natural and artificial barriers for the puppy to work through. The third photo shows the puppies searching for a ball through pine needles. The puppies are then taught to find the ball over the swaying bridge (fourth photo), note the open holes and the noise the metal makes when they walk on it.
Finding Scent

Once the puppy is comfortable with all these obstacles and is willing to search for his ball without giving up we start to teach him to search for a specific drug scent. We start with pseudo- marijuana, which can be obtained from Sigma, and various drug bags, which we get from www.workingdogs.com. We sprinkle the scent on top of the ball and put it in one of the boxes (fifth photo). When the dog finds his ball he will scratch, but what he is actually starting to do is associate that scent with his prize, the ball. We then go to hiding the ball with the scent in the sand and the puppy will actively search until he smells his toy, then he must scratch to receive his reward.

With this simple but strong imprinting the puppies will have no problem completing a certification program by the time they reach their first birthday. We now build on this, hiding the scent in PVC pipes, in lockers, cars, or wood piles. By the time the puppy is 16 weeks old we will take him to a friend's kennel and hide his pseudo-drugs in that environment to make sure he can work through distractions, new scents, and noises. One of our best training areas is near the local train station. Trust me, a train is a great distraction. A fully trained dog shows extreme, our one male is so determined to find the drugs and get his reward that he will work past a female in standing heat!

Patrol: For puppies destined for patrol work we look for somewhat different criteria-- a puppy who is more independent, one who enjoys the ball but is not driven to continually play ball. I want a puppy who has shown alpha tendencies (dominance) and is willing to engage in a fight. I test the puppies at seven weeks for their natural bite quality and desire to engage in a fight. When I say natural bite quality I am looking for the willingness to engage and bite any place on the person. The willingness to bite a rag even while he is held with his feet slightly above the ground. I want a puppy who watches me not closing their eyes wincing. You need a puppy who is willing to fight when startled and not flee. We test them with burlap and towels, looking for a puppy who enjoys biting and is willing to readjust naturally to obtain a better grip. We also will spray a light mist of water at them while biting, plus thrown pop bottles at them, and make them bite while walking over the swaying planks. All of these situations helps to exposure the puppy prior to the end of the socialization period and to assure success when they go into other programs. A puppy needs to learns success with each situation, so that you can build their confidence.



I do not do any bite work with puppies until 5 months of age. I think for a patrol dog it is more important to socialize them and to start them on basic obedience. This control work does not take away from the bite of the dog but rather gives you and your dog a better working relationship.

At five months I start the puppies on bite work using leg and arm sleeves. We introduce different textures and equipment at this point but make sure it is always a win-win situation for the puppy. I use Ken Moyer in Virginia for bite training work along with my husband, Mike Ward. By having two different agitators the puppy starts to learn how to read a person and their behaviors. Ken has two different facilities in Virginia in which the dog can be worked, each offering different locations, footings and buildings, the variety strengthens their training.
Bitework

All these exercises build up confidence in a young dog and help to imprint the proper learning experiences. By limiting a puppy's training to 10-15 minutes twice a day, we make sure the puppy is not overloaded and also pays attention to us during that training time.

The regimen I have described challenges puppies with new experiences timed to fit with their own developing capabilities. By carefully watching how they respond you can judge their own innate abilities, and determine which puppies are most suited to the tasks you need. These diverse experiences also lay the groundwork for later success. The combination of careful screening and early training can ensure successful certification down the road..

Biography: Yvette Piantadosi has raised German Shepard Dogs for the last 20 years, and Belgian Malinois for the last 12 years. She has participated in Ring Sport, Schutzhund, agility, obedience and tracking, assessed and whelped over 267 litters mostly for other breeders, and set up a protocol for treating puppies who come down with parvo. Over 37 dogs from her breeding program have been certified and are currently working in all avenues within the US. We currently have a website with additional information www.jagerstadt.com, or mward7@nc.rr.com

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Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 14, 2003, 11:47 PM

Post #168 of 251 (5435 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Boon,

You are very resourceful. Yes this is good article indeed. There are some of the topics which I would like to point out which might damage the pups if certain parameters are not watched

1) Scenting. The author wrote on putting liver on the plact and let the pup scent to it. In this case, most of the pup will air scent and not put their nose to the ground as needed by SchH Tracking. This excercise will be good to test air scenting ability which is needed in Pilice tracking dog. I would improvise a variation in this excercise to drag the liver on the ground to leave a short trail for the pup to follow. Then we can see their ground scenting ability

2) Socialising them in different environment, different footing and different toys and mechanicals are good. However the tendency for inexperienced people to go overboard too fast, too much and too soon is great. If you had gone over the threshold, the pup can fall into wrong inprinting and may foul up a pup long term. For instance, putting a pup in high place or stairs. If the pup falls down, he will develop this fear associated with height or stairs. In inprinting, our aims is to socialise them to different environment that is non threatening as possible. This is to help them grow up confident for later works.

3) The mention of first doing OB for the Patrol Dog candidate. What I believe the author wanted to say here is motivational OB not formal OB. Doing formal OB on a puppy is like bungee jumping without any ropePirate

4) Before bitework on arm sleeve or leg sleeve, the dog has to be conditioned bite works on other non threatening materials first like ropes, rags and slowly onto tugs before a sleeve. The author may have miss a step here as he may be intending this writeup to those whom already have puppy training experience.

5) I like the author mention all play is with me only. This is excellent inprinting for any dogs.

Just to share this opinion. Others you say please.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 15, 2003, 12:23 AM

Post #169 of 251 (5432 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Here I come

What is the main purpose of sheshun training?

To be eligible to do sheshun training, what essential a dog must have?


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 15, 2003, 4:23 AM

Post #170 of 251 (5419 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Yo Wildgunsr,

Yes, FH is much harder/advance tracking trial than even ScH3 tracking. ! It has a much longer track, more turns, more articles also crosstracks to confuse the dog. Laugh

BTW there are 3 level of FH, FH2 & FH3 !

and yes both IP & IPO refer to the same thing.Wink



Quote :
"PSD, Polluxx,
It has been mentioned that the 'downfall' of the original GSD breed started 20 - 30 years back, in your opinions, how do the SchH titles awarded to working and show GSDs differ? Can it be concluded that working GSDs are of 'better' SchH quality."
====================================
Fully agree wt wht PSD has mentioned ! Wink but would like to further add that working GSD is not of better "ScH" quality b'coz there is also other workingline breeds which can also excel in ScH.
I would say IMO working GSD is actually the only "Real GSD" , which were ORIGINALLY bred for its amazing workability, physical & emotional adaptability for all sorts of works in all kind of condition. Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 15, 2003, 6:19 AM

Post #171 of 251 (5415 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kowpa,

Quote :
"sheshun training"
===============================
Well actually it is refer as "Schutzhund" or when translated from German, means "Protection Dog" Wink



Quote :
"To be eligible to do sheshun training, what essential a dog must have?"
=====================================
Well since the objective of Schutzhund is to help to identify dogs with the working abilities so naturally only dogs genetically equiped with the the necessary working drv are able to do ScH. If U refer to the earlier post in this thread , U wil find the term for working drv that is the pre-requistive for ScH training. In any case, for ease of reference I hereby quote from Mr H Raiser's book's "Der Schutzhund" ;

===================================
Prey Drive

Prey drive is part of a dog's food gathering behaviour. In a predatory animal that means prey drive governs hunting and killing techniques. Chasing, flushing, pouncing, biting, and shaking-to-death, are the most important of these techniques when we are talking about protection training. In order to stimulate these instinctive techniques in the dog, we have to keep in mind what a real prey animal does when it is hunted. Prey is always on the move, it always moves in an evasive fashion, and it is panic-stricken. These behaviours in turn trigger pursuit, pouncing, biting, pulling, and shaking-to-death in the dog. Prey drive is inborn, and is a trainable instinct, meaning it can be enhanced or reduced. Prey drive can be exhausted, meaning that a time will come when the dog "doesn't feel like performing the desired behaviours any more." Author's note: Considering the serious effects the end result of this drive would have on a prey animal, I do not subscribe to the idea that prey work is only a silly game.

Defense Drive

Defense drive counts as one of the dog's aggression behaviours, and it can appear in conjunction with other behaviours. Threatening, staring, and biting are typical defensive reactions. Defense behaviour is generally triggered by threats, real or perceived, or open aggression. The goal of defense behaviour is always to create avoidance behaviour in the threatener. Defense drive may appear as defense of prey, defense of puppies, defense of territory, defense against the unfamiliar, or self-defense. The drive is satisfied in each case when the aggressor shows avoidance behaviour. Defense drive is not subject to exhaustion, so it can be activated at will. It should, therefore, be part of the combative behaviour of any protection dog. Furthermore, it is responsible for behaviours like countering when under stress or when threatened. The great danger when working a dog in defense drive is that the same stimuli which cause defense behaviour also cause avoidance behaviour. Which of the two possible behaviours is displayed by a dog when a trigger stimulus is presented is dependant on a variety of factors, among them confidence and temperament of the dog as well as the threatener, "life" experiences of the dog, age and maturity of the dog, location (unfamiliar or home turf), distance between adversaries, and the presence of other external influences (prey, mate, puppies). Author's note: Hopefully this allows people to see defense for the double-edged sword it is. Defense is one part of protection training. The idea that good dogs should only be worked in defense is a dangerous one which has wrecked many great dogs.

Aggression Drive

Aggression behaviour contains reactive aggression (defense) as well as active aggression (social aggression). With all the different theories that exist about aggression, there still is no conclusive proof available as to whether or not genuine spontaneous aggression exists. The three theories about where aggression comes from are:

Aggression is learned.
Aggression is created by negative experiences.
Aggression is inborn.

The truth is probably that aggression results from all three processes. Research is available to support all three theories. For our purposes however, we should concern ourselves less with where aggression comes from and more with what triggers it, what its goal is, and what its biological significance is. The triggers for reactive aggression (defense) was covered under the previous heading. So, lets deal with active aggression. It is always intraspecific, meaning social aggression, and is the result of competition over things (territory, food, mates, etc.). Intraspecific aggression is activated by rivals, and by anti-social behaviour. The goal of the drive is to cause avoidance, submission, or worse of the rival. Biological significance is the even distribution of a species over available land to reduce the possibility of food shortages and epidemics as well as survival of a species and a pack by selecting the fittest animals for reproduction and as leaders. In species with a social hierarchy behaviours developed from the aggressive drive, which limit the negative results and guarantee the positive results of social aggression such as threatening, dominance, submission, and rituals of non-physical combat.

Aggression increases through maturation and practise. It can also be increased or decreased through training and through external influences, for example pain can be aggression stimulating. Other factors which affect aggressive behaviour are location and hormone levels. Two factors which affect aggression that a protection helper needs to be aware of are: personal acquaintance blocks aggression; and passive acceptance of a dog's aggression impresses a dog deeply and causes unsureness.

A negative side effect of aggression in dog training is that it greatly reduces the dog's learning ability.

Author's note: We all want to see our dogs work aggressively against the "bad guy," but we need to keep in mind that that is the final picture we want to see. Too often high quality dogs don't reach their potential because their owners want to see them aggressive right from the start, forgetting about the fact that the dog has to learn many intricate exercises before he can walk onto the competition field. So if possible teach the dog an exercise first, then make him perform it aggressively.

Fighting Drive

Again the question of whether or not an independent fighting drive exists has not yet been answered. Some dog-experts feel that a fighting drive must exist and that it is related to the play drive. The term fighting drive is an oxymoron. It combines the word drive refers to an inherited trait which serves to preserve life and species, with the word fight which refers to physical combat. A drive to fight would then be an internal motivation which leads the animal into a potentially harmful situation. But even in social aggression the non-physical ritualistic showdowns are much more common than the injurious physical fights. However, that argument aside, the term fighting drive is a useful description of a desirable behaviour in the dog. We want to see a dog who has fun fighting with the helper. But only a dog who doesn't feel like he is fighting for his life can be unstressed and have fun. Therefore I (Raiser) feel that fighting drive is an extension of prey drive.

What qualities make up good fighting drive - meaning the spontaneity? Practical experience has shown that dogs who work primarily in as a result of their defensive drive may still lack fighting drive. Dogs like that then often fail to engage the helper if he does not present any defensive stimuli, but work confidently while under threat. The desire to "seek the fight" is an essential ingredient of fighting drive. In all dogs with pronounced fighting drive, I also found pronounced prey drive. Making prey is a passionate activity which does not stress the dog. However, prey drive alone is not equal to fighting drive, the dog also has to use defense behaviour. The fundamental component of fighting drive is the active part of the aggressive drive, social aggression. Therefore, the dog must always see the helper as a rival. The object of competition could vary: it could be the prey (hence the relation to prey drive); or it could be social rank, which works well with dominant dogs. So in order to increase fighting drive, we have to promote prey drive, build up defense drive, and strengthen aggression by teaching the dog that he can defeat and dominate the helper. This should make it very clear that as much as fighting drive is a very desirable quality, one cannot expect to see it fully developed in a one year old dog.

=====================================

As an afternote, I would like to add that even though that a dog's must have the drv to do the work but we, the handler must know or understand how to activate it ...Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 15, 2003, 6:26 AM)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 15, 2003, 8:35 AM

Post #172 of 251 (5404 views)
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Re: [boon,PSD,Azman,Kowpa,colinchin,RealityDreamer,Wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Guys,


Boon, that's a good post u put up, now I know another way to teach my dog on how to "dig".Tongue


Quote:
-------------------------------------------------
At 5 weeks ,
"We shoot the air guns and watch the tails of the puppies, they can transmit a lot of what the dog is feeling. Is it wagging, stiff, tucked, upright, curly over the back? These are all important indicators of future temperament. A wagging tail shows me a puppy who is curious and willing to take a chance and listen to human directions. A stiff tail held over their back show me a dominant puppy who I would watch for patrol work. A stiff tail semi- tucked is a puppy who works with flight rather then fight drive."
====================================
So guys, wht do U thk of the above ? Is the reading of the above pup's body language...a good indicator of their future temperament ! I tot u need at least 7-8 weeks old before U r able to gauge their future behaviour. Crazy...


Overall, I thk it quite a good regimented program for a working kennel , & u will need helpers/assistant to pull it off. As for me, I will just stick wt playing tug/ball to stimulate prey drv for a start plus some simple motivational OB like sit/down/stay until 1 yr old before moving on.


I'm hoping that all u guys on board would share your's opinion or experience or even query on how to raise a working (ScH) prospect pups (GSD or otherwise) ..? ?


p/s :PSD, back to ur post abt tracking , how do U transfer the scent to the ground (using liver) to foot tracking ? ? ? I meant the transition ? ?Blush






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 15, 2003, 9:35 AM

Post #173 of 251 (5399 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Wow what a great man! U sound like a schutzhund trainer eh? I thought motor vehicles only have drives dogs also do have drive too ah!

Quote :
"sheshun training"
===============================
Well actually it is refer as "Schutzhund" or when translated from German, means "Protection Dog" Wink
============================================== Since schutzhund means protection dog so the propose of schutzhund is protection is that wat u mean?
=============================================

Quote :
"To be eligible to do sheshun training, what essential a dog must have?
=================================== Prey Drive
Prey drive is inborn,
================================================ Do u mean that every dogs definately have this kind of drive the prey drive the crazy drive! But I have seen dogs not interested in chasing a running ball? Is it that he is not born with this kind of drive? If this drive can be trained will this dog be a future schutzhund?
============================================= Defense Drive
A dog being provoke and out of fear he bites is this considered defense drive ? ================================================
Aggression Drive
Do u need this kind of drive in the schutzhund? ================================================== Fighting Drive
The fundamental component of fighting drive is the active part of the aggressive drive, social aggression. Therefore, the dog must always see the helper as a rival.
=====================================
In this case schutzhund are very dangerous? Don't u think so?



colinchin
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Oct 15, 2003, 5:17 PM

Post #174 of 251 (5393 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

A very good morning to all you out there,

Look like there was a heavy discussion last night. Anyone knows of the differences between real protection dogs and sports dogs ie for eg. SchH, etc ??

Have a good day at work.

Regards,

Colin


mhazman
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Oct 15, 2003, 11:31 PM

Post #175 of 251 (5381 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Colin,
Real protection requires a high degree of defense, fight and civil drives in a dog. Sport dogs having them can be trained in civil agitation, hidden sleeve,muzzlework and body bites. The workingline gang did quite bit of discussions in the earlier posts.

It can be quite confusing at first but with a good understanding on drives, temperament, sharpness etc we should get the idea somehow. Also helps if you can observe your dogs.

rgds

Azman


Kowpa
Member

Oct 16, 2003, 12:19 AM

Post #176 of 251 (5969 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

What do u mean by real protection and sport dogs? Me confuse! help some one


mhazman
Member

Oct 16, 2003, 1:40 AM

Post #177 of 251 (5955 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kowpa,

Sport dogs - Dogs trained in tracking,obedience and protection for titles e.g Schutzhund, SVV,ZVV,ringsport...

Personal/family protection dogs - Dogs trained for real life threatening events to his handler/family/property.


Some dogs can do both , some only one and a lot of dogs today failed both, although they look great. If they are good at both then, they are normally good PSH/PSD
I'm trying to keep it simple.Hope its helpful.

rgds

Azman


Polluxx
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Oct 16, 2003, 1:44 AM

Post #178 of 251 (5954 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Kowpa,

No ! I'm not a ScH trainer.....just have been doing some reading into it lately !

Quote :

"schutzhund means protection dog so the propose of schutzhund is protection is that wat u mean? "
======================================================


Like I have said earlier, Sch was developed as a mean/tool used to evaluate a dog's breeding potential , supposedly only GSD with the desire working drv are used in GSD breeding program !

In any case dog's that did well in ScH has the potential to be trained as personal protection dog or police dog but must undergo some re-training 1st ! As I'm not too familiar wt PPD ,maybe others on board will be able to offer some in-sight into this.



Quote:

"Prey drive is inborn,
Do u mean that every dogs definately have this kind of drive the prey drive the crazy drive! But I have seen dogs not interested in chasing a running ball? Is it that he is not born with this kind of drive? If this drive can be trained will this dog be a future schutzhund? "

=====================================================

NOT every dog's prey drv is the same, it depends on the individual dog genetic make-up. And yes some dogs have very little or no prey drv at all so it will be much difficult to train this dog. But like wht the author mentioned, if the dog has resonable prey drv, it can be improved or reduced to a certain degree depending on how we trained / play wt our dog. As PSD has mentioned in earlier post, training for ScH purely in prey drv is not a good way as it will lack intensity & aggression (aggression in this case is not a random aggression but controlled aggression brought out against the "helper" or "assailant", a dog's must have courage to do this !)



Quote:

"A dog being provoke and out of fear he bites is this considered defense drive ?"

No this definitely not defense drv, I will call this a weak nerve or shy dog that bite out of fear (Fear biter). Normally a strong nerved dog will turn on its defense drv only when provoked , such as raising its hair at the back of its neck, it's lip will curl back showing its teeth & Barking to warn the would be assailant to back-off , "if not I'm gonna bite ur A@s"



Quote:

Aggression Drive - Do u need this kind of drive in the schutzhund?

Yes, IMO definitely ! I want to see that kind of "intensity" in my dog , who will stand its ground & take down the assailant when under attacked or take down a criminal suspect in the case of a police K9 ! !


Quote :

Fighting Drive - The fundamental component of fighting drive is the active part of the aggressive drive, social aggression. Therefore, the dog must always see the helper as a rival. In this case schutzhund are very dangerous? Don't u think so?

I believe U do not understand ScH very well ! Like what one member told me earlier, Schutzhund is all about "Control & Discpline" a properly trained ScH dog when not in action is a very calm house dog , very obedience & social dog (aloof but not agressive towards strangers) and most importantly as well a very stable dog incl around children !

therefore in this case, the "Fight drv" is only turn on when doing the ScH protection exercise & only when under provocation by the "helper" but is under controlled at other time !

Let me reiterate one more time of wht have been mentioned earlier, ScH training is about controlling & channelling ur dog's working drv & it is used as a tools to evaluate the dog's potential.

So tell me if without the desired working drv wht good is the GSD then !

Wink ..! !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 16, 2003, 2:04 AM

Post #179 of 251 (5952 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

This is too much for me at this moment...
I was "attracted" to this thread, so here I am... reading... digesting... NO, Trying hard to digest but find it hard to join in your discussions!!!
learned a lot but also learn nothing coz I don't really get the FACTS planted in my brain. Isn't it this thread the most informative and .... most thought provoking?? Well~ at least i took my very first chance to pat on a GSD last weekend. I cant deny... I'm amazed by HIM. What a wonderful GSD, and it's not FIERCE at all!Shocked too bad... GSD without a pair of droopy ears and no-dumdum-look.... Guess some of you know my taste in dogs huh?~CoolTongue

Enjoy~Smile


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 3:53 AM

Post #180 of 251 (5947 views)
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Re: [colinchin,mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

hi Guys,


Quote:
""Real protection requires a high degree of defense, fight and civil drives in a dog. Sport dogs having them can be trained in civil agitation, hidden sleeve,muzzlework and body bites.""
=====================================
Yes ! Wink , and if I'm not mistaken , PPD must be trained for in quite a no. of different scenario & situation so as to condition it to protect its owner & family in any environment !

So Azman, how's Amor progressing, do U still test/trained him @ ur fren kennel ? ? I'm asking this b'coz I was wondering whether PPD needs to be test or train regularly to ensure they will not forget their training ? ? Tongue

BTW guys....did U know "AKC" just held their 1st ever ScH trial....! Shocked . . . ! Well I'm truly shocked & surprised ! ! but glad, at the same time ! Laugh

maybe our local k9 org could take a leaf out them , .... well I guess we just have to keep our fingers crossed ! Cool






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 16, 2003, 4:14 AM)


Polluxx
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Oct 16, 2003, 4:11 AM

Post #181 of 251 (5950 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ,

I'm glad u can join us here !

Dun worry too much abt the discussion here, like U , I'm also trying to digest some of the info here ! Wink

He he he ! .... U smitten with a GSD alredi, ! Laugh
Maybe can make a convert out of U after all ! !SlySly .... Aiyo, GSD also dum-dum looking la, at least mine is ! TongueBlush

BTW....U haven't tell me abt ur new pup la....! !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 16, 2003, 8:40 AM

Post #182 of 251 (5943 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Have u ever experience the spirit of schutzhund?


Polluxx
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Oct 16, 2003, 3:35 PM

Post #183 of 251 (5939 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Kowpa ,

Have U ever seen a ScH Club / Competition in M'sia ? ? ? Crazy


But then hopefully we will in the near future ! ! Cool






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 16, 2003, 3:38 PM)


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 16, 2003, 4:59 PM

Post #184 of 251 (5934 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

My new pup??? Check my profile, written there~Tongue
Of course, NOT a GSD~


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


mhazman
Member

Oct 16, 2003, 7:11 PM

Post #185 of 251 (5928 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

Qoute:
"So Azman, how's Amor progressing, do U still test/trained him @ ur fren kennel ? ? I'm asking this b'coz I was wondering whether PPD needs to be test or train regularly to ensure they will not forget their training ? ? "

Amor's protection is fine for me . he bites the sleeve and body. I'm doing e collar training with him now to improve on the reliability of the commands. There were some attempts before to break into my compound and I let the dogs handle them. Its a kind of free agitation.. kindaa.

I'm trying to set up some hundensport equipment to train my dogs at home. Maybe there are people interested to train together. Who knows we can do some foundation work in Schutzhund..

Azman


prodog
Novice

Oct 16, 2003, 8:21 PM

Post #186 of 251 (5922 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi guys,

Absolutely great to find so many into working dogs and their training. Will not be too long before we have our 1st Schutzhund club, I think.

I'm interested in taking up your offer in training together, Azman. I've got a Dobe and a GSD btw and we're doing some drive, focus and grip work at the moment. Got some equipment of my own (no bite suit though to take body bites from your Amor).

It would be great to meet up.

Prodog


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 16, 2003, 8:36 PM

Post #187 of 251 (5917 views)
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Re: [prodog] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

I wanna join too!!
Can i be a GSD trainer if i'm not a GSD keeper?Tongue


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 8:43 PM

Post #188 of 251 (5913 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ,

I would luv to see U as a decoy . . . . ! ! LaughLaugh Blush !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 16, 2003, 8:46 PM

Post #189 of 251 (5909 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue

I'm soon to be a beagle trainer, wish me good luck then!Angelic

by the way~ how long is the life span for GSD? 12?


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 9:01 PM

Post #190 of 251 (5905 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Azman,

Quote :

"There were some attempts before to break into my compound and I let the dogs handle them. Its a kind of free agitation.. kindaa."

Maybe next time U can put up my addr outside ur compound.....this way my dog also get free decoy & agitation...Tongue....he he he ...! LaughLaugh ! BTW can U describe the look on their face.....! !LaughLaugh ..... Shocked



Quote :

"I'm trying to set up some hundensport equipment to train my dogs at home. Maybe there are people interested to train together. Who knows we can do some foundation work in Schutzhund.."
If got chance, I definitely wanna train together.... but too bad I'm in Jhr Unsure, maybe KL folks can start a small club or something for a start. . . then when the opportunity arises, I will join U guys....hey !.. I'll even get Colin to tag along....he he he ! ! Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 16, 2003, 9:07 PM

Post #191 of 251 (5902 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

 ,

So that is ur new pup hah....! ! Laugh Aiyo...why keep me in suspense so long ? ? Cool

Maybe...for a start U can join Azman for some ScH Obedience & tracking training wt him la !.... Wink

after that U can be his Amor's ...Decoy...! ! LOL .. .LaughLaughLaugh



BTW ....yes I thk a GSD avg life span is abt 12 yrs ! !






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 16, 2003, 9:11 PM)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 16, 2003, 11:45 PM

Post #192 of 251 (5890 views)
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Re: [Kowpa,Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear Kowpa, Pollux,

I had seen that there has been very interesting postings here between both of you. Just would like to add some opinions on these so that things can be better understood.

Aggression Drive and Active aggression, is a very misunderstood thing in todays training. I am not about go against Helmut Reiser in his book on this drive he mentioned but todays training had evolved a lot from his methods which was revolutionary in his time into clearer definition of drives in a dog. before I go to the simplified version of drives, I would like to emphasise more on the Aggression drive.

Aggression drive is much related to survival drive. In the wild, when there is a confrontation, a dog will not straight rush into a fight. This simply does not happen. What instead will happen is that the dog will show teeth, growl, deep continuous bark, raise hackles, stare into direct eye contact, move slowly forward but still keep the distance. These acts are designed to scare away the threat. Confrontation does not usually happen as both predator will not want to risk being injured. Injured predator in the wild means a dead predator. Therefore with this in mind, a dog working in aggression drive will more likely flee from a confrontation than bite. Unless he is cornered or tied to a situation that he cannot go anywhere else and had no choice but to bite as last option of a survival drive.

Today, methods of SchH training since Helmut Reiser revolutionary training book had become so much more easier to be applied where Aggression drive is still needed but is only used as an intermediary to transfer prey drived dog into a fight drive (some call it active aggression) Therefore today, the world of SchH training generally accepts that prey drive, defense drive and fight drive are the needed drives to produce a SchH dog.

As to Aggression drive = dangerous dog, I do not think so because aggression drive is part of a survival drive. For simple explanation, dog will only be in survival mode if there is a stimulus that threats it. Then when the dog acted in aggression drive, it starts as a warning that keep your distance or I will bite. When threats is no more, then it is over and nothing happens.

Personally, I feel that the mere word "Aggression" itself is not a good term to use correctly in today's world. I would preferably call it "defense drive" to be more appropriate, accepted in todays SchH world and easier to understand.

Also SchH dog = Dangerous dog, no way as although we eventually channel the dog from Prey using dfense drive into fight, a SchH dog does not act if there is no Stimuli (the helper) and presence of a prey (the sleeve) because of conditioning. SchH dog or people call sports dog in degrading terms are not poor nerved dogs or dogs that cannot do protection in real life. These dogs are tested in all its drives and control phases to show that it is a true working dog and can be breed surveyed and bread. These dogs has all it takes to perform as a high level PSD,PPD and such. The only thing as pollux also mentioned, these dogs needs some retraining off the sleeve for them to bite in real life. So a Sports dog is not dangerous to the public.

However a top SchH dog like the top 10 in BSP will never be a PSD nor PPD fulltime. Reason being they are very sought after dogs to remain in the sports and sports pays better than PPD or PSD. There is nothing that says a PPD,PSD,SchH dogs are more better than the other. Each dog have to be valued as an individual based on its own attitude, inborn and polished drives and the kind of training it gets. What I'm trying to say is, top PPD, top PSD and top ScHH dogs are very hard to tell apart when they work in those 3 drives in their respective work. The only difference is human greed......best dogs usually goes to sports where it pays better.......Pirate I will let you all ponder on this.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 17, 2003, 3:24 AM

Post #193 of 251 (5875 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Totally agree wt U when U mentioned that aggression drv is the most misunderstood word in the K9 world. Unsure

To me, aggression drv is an interaction & extension of both a dog's prey & defense drv (just like fight drv) borne out of a need to survive. U gave a good example of when a dog during confrontation will turn on its aggression drv to protect itself, these I believe is more an extension of defense drv (more def & less prey). But in the wild, when dogs need to hunt & fight for food, they will turn on their aggression drv but in this case it will be more of prey drv & less of defense drv.

So basically wht we r talking abt here is dogs turning on its aggression drv as part of its survival instinct (but vary in mode depending on its needs or situation it is in ! ). Therefore in ScH protection routine (where aggression drv is always under control) I would like to see Seriousness (intensity) during the B+H exercise and also seriousness in wanting to detain (possess) the assailant during the run-away....Wink.....! !

Maybe we should not use the term "aggression" as Drv but should refer it as a "mean/tool" by dog to survive and to achieve success in a number of types of confrontations....! ! Wink

So as U mentioned in ur post, wht we need in the world of ScH training,...is basically the 3 important drv which is the balance of Prey & Defense drv, followed by Fight drv (Courage & Nerve)

What do u think...? ? ? Smile



Quote: "best dogs usually goes to sports where it pays better......."

NO...la , I thk being a show dog pay the best...la...Tongue .....no stress la ! give ur best flying trot in the ring and next thing U know U could the ....Champ.....he he he ....Laugh Laugh ! ! ......






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


(This post was edited by Polluxx on Oct 17, 2003, 3:27 AM)


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 17, 2003, 7:24 PM

Post #194 of 251 (5864 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,


Quote
To me, aggression drv is an interaction & extension of both a dog's prey & defense drv (just like fight drv) borne out of a need to survive.

All drives are related to survival drives. Of these in SchH protection, Fight drive is the most unatural drive in the dog as in the wild the dog will not "gung-Ho" rush into a fight and risk injury as this would mean that it is against the survival instinct. This is why training SchH is so challenging where we are trying to bring out the fight drive channelling them using prey and defense under a series of confidence building. Actually my earlier feeble attempt was to divert this forum away from getting confused with aggression drive. Can we start changing this term into Defense Drive to be easier to understand?Smile

Quote
But in the wild, when dogs need to hunt & fight for food, they will turn on their aggression drv but in this case it will be more of prey drv & less of defense drv.

if hunt for food then it will be prey totally. In prey he is very motivated with no stress. Prey encompass chasing, carrying, retriving, tracking, trailing, pulling to them, pouncing, shaking to death action. Fight for food (against another predator) is defense drive.


Quote
Therefore in ScH protection routine (where aggression drv is always under control) I would like to see Seriousness (intensity) during the B+H exercise and also seriousness in wanting to detain (possess) the assailant during the run-away....Wink.....! !

The seriousness you mentioned in B&H (bark and Hold) is defence channeling into Fight drive. This is different from a prey bark where the dog will just yip..yip..yip..... But the seriousness when the assailant run away is PREY drive. Therefore the word "seriousness" between the 2 different excercise means 2 different thing do you see?

Quote
So as U mentioned in ur post, wht we need in the world of ScH training,...is basically the 3 important drv which is the balance of Prey & Defense drv, followed by Fight drv (Courage & Nerve)

I forgot to add, we need food drive too. Otherwise very challenging to train the tracking without food drive. Also flashy OB needs to be started with food and then prey items later. I like to use both as it gives me more combinations to work with. Nevertheless, Polluxx, many people complain to me we go too deep already they all read and sees stars liao......and dared not even write anything here.....lol......dear ppl, don be afraid, sincere questions will be appreciated if you do not understand any part.Tongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 17, 2003, 7:24 PM

Post #195 of 251 (5864 views)
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Re: [PSD, Kowpa, Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep going on..... I'm reading. Wink
but digesting like a (cow).... (keep the food for later)Blush


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


Kowpa
Member

Oct 17, 2003, 8:21 PM

Post #196 of 251 (5852 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD

your thread are very impressive U should be the future Malaysan speaker. My salute to u. If everyone can explain like u I think everyone will come to enjoy this sport. Why we are backward in this kind of sport (the schutzhund) everyone thinking that schutzhund dogs are a killer's dog. But in fact schutzhund is totally different from persnoal protection am I right?

Schutzhund is a sport and is intended to demostrate the dog's intelligence and utility. As working trial, schutzhund measures the dog's mental stability, ability to scent, willingness to work, endurance structural efficiency, courage and trainability. Correct?

Schutzhund is not meant to be personal protection training although the skills are similar to those taught to police K-9s an security and protection dogs. While not a test for police or personal protection dogs, many schutzhund dogs are later converted to one of these applications. Correct?

Quote:

This is why training SchH is so challenging where we are trying to bring out the fight drive channelling them using prey and defense under a series of confidence building.

So use this formula Prey + Defense = Fight boleh kah? hehee


Kowpa
Member

Oct 17, 2003, 9:08 PM

Post #197 of 251 (5848 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

In reality there are no competition or schutzhund club in Malaysia.

But for your info there are schutzhund enthusiast like u in Taiping with people from Penang, Ipoh, Bangkok, Kangar, and Germany, 2 honkies was to come in August this year but was held back - doing the training with experience and zero dogs and holding fun competitions like the world competitors competing for almost 11/2 years. Can this considered a competition in Malaysia?

At this time schutzhund club almost comes up if the can come to compromise. But due to unforseen circumstances the training stop just 4 months ago.


prodog
Novice

Oct 17, 2003, 11:39 PM

Post #198 of 251 (5840 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ,

You're more than welcome to join me.


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 18, 2003, 2:48 AM

Post #199 of 251 (5834 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Kowpa,

Paiseh! Dont mean to act like an expert but if see something that can be better explained then have to say something loh! Hope that people dont get more pening than they already are....heheheh!


Quote

Why we are backward in this kind of sport (the schutzhund) everyone thinking that schutzhund dogs are a killer's dog. But in fact schutzhund is totally different from persnoal protection am I right?


I think you are right.


Quote
Schutzhund is a sport and is intended to demostrate the dog's intelligence and utility. As working trial, schutzhund measures the dog's mental stability, ability to scent, willingness to work, endurance structural efficiency, courage and trainability. Correct?


Couldn't be better put.


Quote
Schutzhund is not meant to be personal protection training although the skills are similar to those taught to police K-9s an security and protection dogs. While not a test for police or personal protection dogs, many schutzhund dogs are later converted to one of these applications. Correct?


Yes these are the basis of what all GSD's are all about. A dog successful in SchH using the correct way of teaching and utilising the dogs correct drives and function plus having the correct nerves and temprement will enable the dog to serve as service dog in any of those categories you mentioned. However, since SchH training itself takes a long time, for Police Dogs, they usually start a dog into a different training program altogether so that the dogs have a longer service age...be it for patrol and apprehension or sniffer dogs. It is not unknown that low scoring SchH dogs are also converted into service dogs too as they cannot do much in the highly competitive sports. However these dogs are not bad dogs, they are just not top competition dogs.


Quote
So use this formula Prey + Defense = Fight boleh kah? hehee


I would put it this way

Prey+Defense+confidence building(experience)=fight drive

Since fight drive is the most unatural drive for a dog in the wild. Therefore to bring out the fight drive so that it comes all the time on the job needs a lot of confidence added into the dog training program. In other the dog always wins the fight against the helper. It is a saying however that if a dog that has no genetics in it will never have any fight drive to start with therefore no way to bring out something that is never there. So If I may add that the best of trainers can only train a dog to its genetics best and nothing more.......screwed up trainers though will just destroy those best genetics and render the dog into a nin-com-poop!Tongue

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 18, 2003, 3:45 AM

Post #200 of 251 (5830 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Kowpa,


Quote:
"But for your info there are schutzhund enthusiast like u in Taiping with people from Penang, Ipoh, Bangkok, Kangar, and Germany, 2 honkies was to come in August this year but was held back - doing the training with experience and zero dogs and holding fun competitions like the world competitors competing for almost 11/2 years.""
=====================================
So what happened ? ? Unimpressed...r they still around ! ! maybe U guys can come up wt something like starting a informal Sch training session & at the same time getting more ppl to join ! ! Smile


Quote :
""Can this considered a competition in Malaysia?""
====================================
Well why not !, I guess the spirit of ScH is not only limited in competition but also during the training session U share wt ur fellow trainee as well rite ! Tongue



Quote :
""At this time schutzhund club almost comes up if the can come to compromise. But due to unforseen circumstances the training stop just 4 months ago""
=====================================
So what happened ? ? even if MKA can stopped the forming of ScH club.....why did they stopped training ? ? I meant they can train on their own rite...we dun need MKA for that ...! ! so what really happened ? I'm most curious ! ! Shocked
Maybe U can e-mail me at :



Quote:

This is why training ScH is so challenging where we are trying to bring out the fight drive channelling them using prey and defense under a series of confidence building.
===================================
It looks like U pick-up ScH very well, better & faster than me ... I would say ! ! Wink






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 18, 2003, 4:56 PM

Post #201 of 251 (5669 views)
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Re: [prodog] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi prodog~

Thanks. Too many theories being elaborated here,
I'm wanticipating for the practical training!
Smile


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


colinchin
Enthusiast


Oct 18, 2003, 5:24 PM

Post #202 of 251 (5666 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Me, looking forward too.... Theories follows by training will give us a clearer understanding of what a real working line breed should be. It will also bond us better with our dogs, I believe.

Whether a dog can perform well depends vastly on the part of the handler. I would say it evolves around 50% on the role of the handler, if I am correct to make this statement.

Regards,

Colin


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 18, 2003, 6:12 PM

Post #203 of 251 (5662 views)
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Re: [colinchin] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

This is GREAT~

That's our great webmaster, that's our good webmaster, and here's the Thread!!!ShockedTongue


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


prodog
Novice

Oct 18, 2003, 6:13 PM

Post #204 of 251 (5661 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ,

You're right. It's time to put all that theory into practical training. I work my dogs everyday, so feel free to join. How can I get in touch with you?


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 18, 2003, 6:13 PM

Post #205 of 251 (5660 views)
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Re: [prodog] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

   

I'm in Cheras area.Smile


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


prodog
Novice

Oct 18, 2003, 6:47 PM

Post #206 of 251 (5658 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm in the Old Klang Road area. Give you more details on your e-mail.


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 19, 2003, 5:18 AM

Post #207 of 251 (5647 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

hehe

can train working bullmastiffWink

though he might not be as swift as a GSD or DobeTongue
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



mhazman
Member

Oct 19, 2003, 4:07 PM

Post #208 of 251 (5637 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Guys,
For a start we can meet at the KK gathering next week and get to know better.
I'm sure there are others who are interested.

Azman


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 19, 2003, 9:15 PM

Post #209 of 251 (5636 views)
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Re: [prodog] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Gotcha~ thanks for sharing~Wink


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 19, 2003, 9:17 PM

Post #210 of 251 (5635 views)
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Re: [RealityDreamer] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel that bullmastiff is a very easy-to-train breed (to me, house-train la~Tongue). BM always calm and alert.


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 19, 2003, 9:18 PM

Post #211 of 251 (5649 views)
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Re: [mhazman] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

See you soon then, Azman.Smile


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 20, 2003, 3:51 AM

Post #212 of 251 (5639 views)
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Re: [prodog] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi prodog,

Can't help noticing ur post abt training "drive, focus and grip work" so how's ur dog progressing so far ?
how is his grip getting so far ? ? Cool

BTW I also trying the above technique, but not too sucessful, I would say ! Wink ......






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 20, 2003, 7:35 AM

Post #213 of 251 (5632 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

yea..they are Smile

i think so too.
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



Kowpa
Member

Oct 20, 2003, 6:47 PM

Post #214 of 251 (5626 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Quote So what happened ? ? Unimpressed...r they still around ! ! maybe U guys can come up wt something like starting a informal Sch training session & at the same time getting more ppl to join ! ! Smile
All training started be4 they make a deciison to join with the since without their approval they start their training as usual in weeekend and until the Tai lo passed away and the gate to the training field's key was unfound the training stopped! Ever see an ice-berg? my schutzund knowledge is only the tip of an ice-berg



PSD
ALPHA


Oct 20, 2003, 7:38 PM

Post #215 of 251 (5617 views)
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Re: [Prodog, Mack, Kowpa, colin, Azman,Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Woooooaaahhhh!

Never log in for 2 days and noticed quite a party going on here. I'm even lost I think....lol!

Prodog, you sounded like someone into SchH and protection training. Glad to have you joined here. Hopefully you guys can get something running in Klang area.

It is true that theories needs to be used in practical to see and understand it better. We always must practise lest we could not understand its gist.

Colin, I would put that a trainer is so important that he is the single most important factor in deciding if a good dog turns out great or downright poops. The best trainer though can only bring any dog to its genetics best and nothing more. Handler in this instance needs a very experienced helper whom is actually the trainer to read the dog from the different prespective. Understressing the dog will create disinterest while everstressing will destroy him. A handler can both creates bond or destroys the bond at the same time just to let you know if wrong approach is used. Dog training is not exact science and needs plenty of thinking, planning and creativity. The training steps must be decided by each and every individual dog and not a training step routine as decided by a handler without looking at the dog's agenda. If these can be understood, then it is time to enjoy the training sessions with our partners the furbie Smile

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 21, 2003, 8:33 AM

Post #216 of 251 (5598 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Dog training is not exact science and needs plenty of thinking, planning and creativity. The training steps must be decided by each and every individual dog and not a training step routine as decided by a handler without looking at the dog's agenda. If these can be understood, then it is time to enjoy the training sessions with our partners the furbie

Correct me if I'm wrong Dog training is Science and Art and must be very creative.


wildgunsr
Dog Kichi

Oct 21, 2003, 4:09 PM

Post #217 of 251 (5594 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

check out the front page of TheSun(21.10.2003) today man!! C O O L N E S S CoolCoolCool


cris
Enthusiast


Oct 21, 2003, 5:32 PM

Post #218 of 251 (5590 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Its so interesting to read what all of you wrote. I wish i have a big compound and can have a working GSD to work with. Anyway, i am trying to digest what was written and gee....think it will take me a long time to digest it....smile.

Keep up the good work and i hope one day i can see this type of training over here.


PSD
ALPHA


Oct 21, 2003, 9:59 PM

Post #219 of 251 (5578 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Kowpa....hehehSmile In your own words I guess I must agree with you. Maybe to refine it more perhaps dog training needs

" to be analysed as a science but executed like an artform with creativeness of the trainer"

Heheh! Talking like a professor...lol Blush

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 22, 2003, 6:44 AM

Post #220 of 251 (5564 views)
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Re: [cris] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Cris,

Glad U can join us ! Smile

Quote:
""I wish i have a big compound and can have a working GSD to work with""
--------------------------------------------------------
Well as long u r willing to train/play or exercise wt ur dog regularly it should be ok ! Cool


Quote:
"'think it will take me a long time to digest it....smile.''
----------------------------------------------------------
Dun worry abt it ... if u have any query , just post it on the board....I'm sure other board members will be able to bring U up to speed ...... ! Wink


Have fun on board ...! Tongue






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


Kowpa
Member

Oct 22, 2003, 10:03 PM

Post #221 of 251 (5544 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
check out the front page of TheSun(21.10.2003) today man!! C O O L N E S S CoolCoolCool



By the time I reach the news stall The Sun already set and The Star takes it place.

Now tell the board what is it about or post The Sun to the thread


RealityDreamer
Doggyman


Oct 24, 2003, 8:31 AM

Post #222 of 251 (5524 views)
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Re: [wildgunsr] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

yea..I'm curious too.Crazy

What's in The Sun?
,-._,-.
\/)"(\/
(_o_)



prodog
Novice

Oct 30, 2003, 11:56 PM

Post #223 of 251 (5502 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Polluxx,

Sorry for the late reply as I've been away.

The training is progressing very well. My dobe use to have a chewy bite, thanks to some bad training from a so-called pro but with Bernhard's techniques, it has improved a lot. Drive and focus are up and the bite is a lot calmer. Will continue with this training as it seems to work.

Prodog


prodog
Novice

Oct 31, 2003, 12:01 AM

Post #224 of 251 (5501 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi PSD,

Its just a hobby of mine.

Would be great if all of us can meet up one day & chit-chat.

Prodog


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 31, 2003, 12:05 AM

Post #225 of 251 (5499 views)
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Re: [prodog] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi prodog,
were u there in KK last Sunday???


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


prodog
Novice

Oct 31, 2003, 12:31 AM

Post #226 of 251 (6541 views)
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Re: [mackmack] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ,

Couldn't make it last Sunday. Did you manage to meet any of the working dog 'kakis'?


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Oct 31, 2003, 4:04 AM

Post #227 of 251 (6535 views)
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Re: [prodog] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Prodog,

No problem...!

Sorry to hear abt ur dog's experience wt this bad trainer. I thk these ppl should be named for the harmed they have done..! Mad

Anyway its good to hear that ur dogs has improved a lot alredi. So how did u calm his bite..?? ...more running wt the prey item..?? Tongue

as for me , I m still trying to improve my dog's focus & attention, though the bite is much firmer now. But not setting my hopes too high though....Wink

BTW how old is ur dobbie ...? where did u get him..?






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


prodog
Novice

Oct 31, 2003, 7:19 AM

Post #228 of 251 (6529 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Polluxx

Yeah, had enough of these trainers. I've actually met quite a number and their technique is pretty similar. In obedience, its nothing but compulsion. In protection, its basically biting out of defence when cornered. My suggestion to people is even if they decide to send their dogs for training, they should first educate themselves in order to scrutinise the trainers.

I'd once worked a dog that was trained by one of the more popular trainers. This dog was so hectic and chewy that he'd literally typewrite from the hand to the shoulder. Just came to the conclusion that you can protection train in 2 months but don't expect too much.

My dobe is 3 yrs old and is of local breeding from mixed bloodlines, neither 100% show or working. Just calmed his bite with more running with the prey, gentle stroking while in my arms and only outing him occasionally.


mackmack
Doggyman


Oct 31, 2003, 11:25 PM

Post #229 of 251 (6519 views)
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Re: [prodog] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi prodog~

I met Azman with his Petra, and Boon loh. They showed LIFE DEMO in KK!!LaughTongue


--I have Howling Bean and Lazy Mack.--


(This post was edited by mackmack on Oct 31, 2003, 11:25 PM)


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Nov 1, 2003, 4:53 AM

Post #230 of 251 (6506 views)
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Re: [prodog] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi prodog,

Quote:
""My suggestion to people is even if they decide to send their dogs for training, they should first educate themselves in order to scrutinise the trainers.""
---------------------------------------------------------
Now that is where this board comes in, to educate & inform so that in the future no such "trainer" can take any of us here for a "ride". Mad


Quote:
""Just came to the conclusion that you can protection train in 2 months but don't expect too much""
-----------------------------------------------------------
There is no short cut in protection training....instead of getting a trained dog ...we might end up wt a major LIABILTY problem ! !


Anyway keep working your dogs, & good luck to your training ! ! Tongue

BTW do e-mail me : Polluxx@puppy.com.sg






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


vicfion
Ultra ALPHA


Nov 12, 2003, 6:15 AM

Post #231 of 251 (6467 views)
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Re: [stanleywong] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

I may not own 1 but I get to babysit my friend's mix German Shepherd whenever they are out of town back in the States (unfortunately she was killed by a car accident)... I had been seeing so many nice ones around my area here in Malaysia... you have a photo of your dog to share? Just wondering... Fiona
Attachments: babysittingforfriend.jpg (18.7 KB)


GSD
Dog Kichi


Nov 28, 2003, 6:21 AM

Post #232 of 251 (6434 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, I can find alot of useful info here. Great work.



Steven
Penang Island.


Polluxx
Enthusiast


Nov 29, 2003, 7:10 AM

Post #233 of 251 (6413 views)
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Re: [GSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Steven,

Glad U can join us here ! Cool

Feel free to chk out the goodies here...he he he ! Wink

Have fun ! Tongue






"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are."
(GSD Founder - Capt Max V Stephanitz)


PSD
ALPHA


Dec 17, 2003, 11:52 PM

Post #234 of 251 (6372 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Polluxx,

You are right that this board tries to serve as desktop help....lol. But remember, at best it serves to strengthen the understanding. To train still needs some physical guidance, unless there is someone with a natural talent......I have not met that person yet....lol

You are right again that protection training is more than a 2 months rush job. Always remember, a protection dog is a courageous dog, a companion, a socially able dog, confident and always reliable under command. He reacts only under threat otherwise he is your furry nice golden retriever wagging his tail around.

To train a dog to bite needs only 2 months, to get a reliable companion who will be willing to give his life for you takes a lifetime. Therefore, if anyone is a person whom is truely looking for a fearless companion, you have to make an effort and be a part of his training. This is meant for all aspiring people whom really enjoys great relationship with their dog, you have to make this choice.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


PSD
ALPHA


Dec 18, 2003, 12:13 AM

Post #235 of 251 (6370 views)
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Re: [GSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Steven,

Were you the one whom enquired about GSD's and Rotts some time ago?

Have you finally got your pups?

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


GSD
Dog Kichi


Dec 18, 2003, 7:25 AM

Post #236 of 251 (6355 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

PSD + doggy lover,

Yes, I'm looking for GSD and rotts. But for some reason, I think I will get a GSD/3-4 months puppy only at around march 04. Now is the time for me to gether more info. about GSD (also rotts at the same time).

Another question, should I get a male (dog) or female (bitch) ? Thinking to go for bitch, I heard that bitches are in season -- every 6 months, right ? And during this time frame, will it be very messy ? What are the steps I need to take note during this time frame ? Any advise or experience ? I think I should restrict her from other dogs for 3 weeks, right ?

Last, I'm trying to search for a training book/guide for beginner, more toward step by step training working dog(like GSD). Example, like after 3 months, what are the common and general training for a working dog. And after how many months, I can start with some dog biscuit or meat ?, etc.... Any suggestion ?

Basically, I don't expect my doggy to be the 'expert' or 'champ', I just need to have a doggy which can watch my house, and listern to my command. Off course s/he must be a healthy dog. Cool



Steven
Penang Island.


PSD
ALPHA


Dec 18, 2003, 10:46 PM

Post #237 of 251 (6343 views)
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Re: [GSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

PSD + doggy lover?????? I'm a bit lost here....Crazy Forgive my slowness, maybe had been mixing with too many dogs...lolTongue

You did correctly, not many people is as responsible in researching the breed and requirements so throughly first before buying. They just usually jump on the bandwagon and see where that took them.Unsure......

A male or a bitch is all a matter of choice. As a general guidance, most females are closer to the family, as such they could be easier trained and respond better more of feminity I think. The male on the other hand can be a bit more aloof and gung-ho especially the dominant ones. They need to be handled correctly. However if you have a good bond and treets your dog is an fair anf firm way then male of female does not matter. The heat in bitches in general comes every 6 months, some longer. In such time, you must be responsible to keep them safe from any would be rapistTongue. Some dogs are very clean while others will drips.

You can find out more about training books at another thread started by Reality Dreamer. For you I wouold recomend u go for Purely Positive Training. It is voted the best book of the year. Works both for beginers as well as professionals.

From what I see, you are looking for a great pet whom is expected to be a good watch dog. If possible in future you would want to see if he can be turned into a Guard dog whom would fearlessly defend your home from any intruder right?

My advice is, Look not for the sex of the puppy. Just go a see the whole litter. Then select a candidate whom is of good temprement, good nerve and social and it also appeals to you too in that order of priority.

Which state are you in BTW? You can reply me personally if you decided not to go public at

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)

(This post was edited by PSD on Dec 18, 2003, 10:49 PM)


GSD
Dog Kichi


Dec 21, 2003, 5:14 AM

Post #238 of 251 (6322 views)
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Re: [PSD] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

hello, I'm from Pg, what about U ? where U come from ? Mind to tell ?



Steven
Penang Island.


Landsend
New User

Jan 10, 2004, 2:58 PM

Post #239 of 251 (6221 views)
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Re: [mhazman] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Mhazman,

I have been trying to PM you but it will not go through. I just wanted to talk with you about your pup who is the son of Norbo. We are about to get a male whose father is Norbo and we wanted your input. We wanted to know how good he is with kids and the like. We wanted to do Sch and also train him as a therapy dog. Any input would be great


PSD
ALPHA


Jan 10, 2004, 6:09 PM

Post #240 of 251 (6218 views)
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Re: [Landsend] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Landsend,

Welcome to the board. Mind introducing yourself a bit. Are you in Malaysia as at now?

BTW about Norbo he is known to produce hard dogs. Perfect candidate of Personal Protection work. However as in any breeding, magics does not happen because of only one dog. It depends on how strong the mother is and then how the interaction of genetics properties that will tell you if the progeny is going to be magical of washout. It would be good if you can find out if this is a repeat litter of the same sire and dam. Then you can know clearer. Otherwise your chances is mere guesses as good as mine.

BTW, in one same litter, you can get very outstanding puppy but as well as washout. Still a puppy for your selection if you are going into SchH needs to be specially selected on its own merits and not just Lineage alone. This is my opinion.

Yes, saying that, Norbo is one such magical dog and nice to see in a pedigree. But I personally would want to see the puppy having the drives for the work before any pedigree which should be secondary. hope this helps.

Over to you Azman.

PSD

Quote
"Take this trouble for me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim ."

Rittmeister Capt. Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


mhazman
Member

Jan 12, 2004, 6:23 PM

Post #241 of 251 (6197 views)
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Re: [Landsend] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Landsend,
Sorry for the late reply. What my friend PSD said is true for most dogs.
FYI, I got the dog as a young adult with PP training.
Although Norbo is hard, my dog also gets the hardness from the dam side ( Gero). His mother is also hard to the handler. But that's just my dog. He's the type I need when my family is threatened.
With all that's was said, he is handled by my children between 4 - 12 yrs.
Depending on the dam and your training, Norbo's son would do well in sports or service dogs. But if you wanna do therapy, it may require the right temperament for the task. Puppy test should be done to get the right candidate for the job.

BTW, is this your 1st pup. Are u in Klang Valley ?

Tell us abt yourself.

cheers

Azman


Landsend
New User

Jan 12, 2004, 7:26 PM

Post #242 of 251 (6192 views)
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Re: [mhazman] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks so much for the reply. A tad about myself first:

I live in the US in Texas with my wife and 2 kids. We have another dog but have never owned a shepherd. The litter we have found is with Norbo as the father and another Czech shepherd as the dam. I guess the big question is we know that we can do Sch which we want to do but how will they be with kids? This pup is not the alpha of the litter he is in the middle. He was very good in the temperament test. Had strong drives but was social and stayed near the tester when he was supposed to. So, having the dog that you have with the experience that you have do you feel that with the right socialization a male from this background can be good with kids and good with other dogs? Let me know what you think. I love this website. Lots of great info!!

Lands


mhazman
Member

Jan 13, 2004, 1:28 AM

Post #243 of 251 (6184 views)
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Re: [Landsend] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Lands,
You're quite a long way from here.

If you've done the puppy test then early socialization to kids, strangers and new environments should make him/her social.
Most czech dogs can start their training earlier, so you should develop the drives and watch for these signs when it comes out.
One thing I notice abt my dog is that his willingness to do anything you command ( such as jump or go into an unknown place) may hurt him. Mine is also a bit overzealous in protecting me which may hurt others.But then I wanted a PP dog.. hee .. he...
Otherwise he's fun to be with.

Good luck on your pup.

cheers

Azman


boon
Doggyman


Jan 13, 2004, 8:46 AM

Post #244 of 251 (6177 views)
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Re: [Landsend] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Landsend,


In Reply To


I guess the big question is we know that we can do Sch which we want to do but how will they be with kids?



A good and well trained GSD, be it in the service dog like PP, Patrolling, Police Dog, or Sport like Shutzhund, when they're in 'work' u will see the real them. But when they're at home with kids and friends, they're just like your normal pet. This is the beatiful part of GSD, a well trained GSD.

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


Kowpa
Member

Jan 13, 2004, 9:52 AM

Post #245 of 251 (6174 views)
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Re: [boon] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

You have see it, feel it, touch it They are well controlled, That's what we called working dog and not crazy dog. Like what I heard from SCHUTZHUND DOGS are killer. Now Tell them thru your experient


boon
Doggyman


Jan 13, 2004, 4:23 PM

Post #246 of 251 (6171 views)
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Re: [Kowpa] German Shepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kowpa,

Yeah....well trained, u have control any all time and obey to command without fails. A happy dog, happy end product..........

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


inter K9
New User

Nov 11, 2004, 8:10 PM

Post #247 of 251 (5241 views)
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Re: [Polluxx] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

No Blek is no longer in the U S .I have purchase himSmile at the moment he is on lease in Sweden and had bred Irsa z Lipin who should have puppies on the ground sometime this week.And he just bred to Saprina Policia .Blek will stay in Sweden and then soon will come to my Kennel here in Australia.If every thing go well .you can view his info here /

Inter K9


boon
Doggyman


Nov 12, 2004, 8:17 AM

Post #248 of 251 (5224 views)
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Re: [inter K9] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jim,

Is Blek now in Kottorp ?..... whe do u think he will be in down under ?

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --

(This post was edited by boon on Nov 12, 2004, 8:19 AM)


inter K9
New User

Nov 12, 2004, 4:19 PM

Post #249 of 251 (5213 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Boon

If every thing go well in the next six months if not I will bring in semen from Blek for future use.At the moment puppy from Blek and Irsa is on the ground as we speak.I also have a bitch that just mate to him and she should be here in about four weeks.She is Saprina Policia if you are interest let me know.



Jim (Inter K9 Solutions)


boon
Doggyman


Nov 13, 2004, 2:14 AM

Post #250 of 251 (5198 views)
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Re: [inter K9] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jim,

Wow congrats...

Will do so....keep in touch...

Boon - I Love Fast Dogs That Hit Hard
You Ask Me To Fight For You, I Give You Freedom & Protection And Then You Question The Manner In Which I Provide It, I'd Rather You Just Said -- "Thank You" --


inter K9
New User

Jan 4, 2005, 4:32 PM

Post #251 of 251 (3062 views)
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Re: [boon] germanshepherd [In reply to] Can't Post

 Smile

Hi Boon and list Happy new year to all .
Boon Saprina is now in Australia and is pregnet to Blek Egidius she due to have pup next week.I'm so exited about this litter.I'm very happy wiyh Saprina and the her drive is awsome.

Jim


 
 




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